# Is there anything wrong with "class warfare"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349 "2012-09-10T23:03:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/81 "2012-09-14T15:36:11Z")
You going to ask everyone who wasn’t in the military to pay more as well? How about Social Security, Medicare (both of which are even larger chunks of the budget) or the various other social type programs in the budget? If you use them you should pay more, or if you don’t use them you should pay more? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/82 "2012-09-14T15:56:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You going to ask everyone who wasn’t in the military to pay more as well? That’s not a bad idea. Veterans such as myself get a slight break on property taxes here in Wyoming- that should be extended to all taxes. I sometimes think college-educated veterans should be the only people allowed to vote, but that’s an issue for another thread. > [@](#): > > How about Social Security, Medicare (both of which are even larger chunks of the budget) or the various other social type programs in the budget? If you use them you should pay more, or if you don’t use them you should pay more? Social security and medicare are more like insurance. We should pay for them even though we might never use them. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/83 "2012-09-14T16:10:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But it doesnt - the people who don’t have houses don’t benefit from fire protection. The people who live outside of that precinct don’t benefit from that fire station. People who live in 40.000 dollar houses in high fire risk areas benefit more from the station than the guy who lives in a rented 1.000 dollar shack right next to the river. The act of building that fire station benefits this construction company, but not that one. > And so forth. > > Again, quite a stretch. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest the homeless aren’t paying the level of taxes to build the fire station as a homeowner. The people who live outside of that precinct live in some other precinct with their own fire station. The guy in the 40,000 house pays more in taxes than the guy in the shack. Really, that is all you got? > > I’m not equating anything with anything - I was simply attempting to clarify what **pseudotriton meant by the sentence "taxation is inherently redistributive**", in the context he used the phrase in. > You’re the one who’s going on about the specific, distinct concept that is the idiom “redistribution of wealth” (as used by conservative commentators), that you object to and what you mean by it. This is not that. > > I understand what he meant. It is quite clear, thanks. The phrase was actually used by pseudotriton in post 24 to which I was responding. > > As a matter of fact, it doesn’t - it also benefits whoever gets paid with that “stolen loot” down the line. And theoretically speaking, whoever benefits from the enterprises that the recipients of this influx of “stolen loot” might put together with it, too. > > Broken window theory again. The person from whom the loot was stolen lost the opportunity to spend the money how HE wanted. So don’t try justifying the theft by saying it helped the glazer who replaced the window… > > For example, if you take money for the general population and give it to a subset so that they can put their kids through college, then while the benefit to the portion of the population that doesn’t have kids or don’t get the subsidy for one reason or another is not immediately obvious or direct, they’re _still_ better off when one of the subsidied kids invents sliced bread or whatever. > > So, you picture these thieves as Robin Hood types, who are out taking money and using it for good and noble purposes. The difference is Robin Hood stole the money from people who stole it from the masses. Wealth redistribution is just stealing it from the successful. Not very noble at all. > The other problem with this line of thinking is you don’t get to see what might have been done if the original owner of the money was allowed to do as he would with his money like you are allowed to do with yours. > > And there is a line of indirect beneficiaries from the original earner spending his money in the way that he wanted. > > But that’s veering into a derail and honestly, I’m not really interested in debating economic or taxation policies ; nor do I give much of an airborne copulation about them. I was simply trying to resolve a miscommunication problem. > > There was no communication problem. > > And that is a specific, narrow subset of the broader concept of wealth redistribution. It also isn’t what **pseudotriton was talking about when he asserted that taxation was, by its very nature, redistributive. > I’ll just say it again in case this time it goes through: just because you, along with 99.9% of the public are personally okay with the redistribution (or re-organization, if you prefer and that makes it less confusing) of wealth that is necessarily involved in the building of a fire station (i.e. moving money from the pockets of citizens into that of the builders), doesn’t mean building a fire station using public funds does not involve a redistributive** process. > > It’s just that you’re okay with that one for reasons X, Y and Z ; but not okay with that other one for reasons foo, bar and zox. That’s perfectly fine and you’re most definitely entitled to that opinion, but it doesn’t change the identical underlying processes at work in both cases. The slur “redistribution of wealth” has nothing to do with the legitimate operation of the government. (meaning applying the law equally to raise revenues, and using those for authorized functions of government). It means the democratic process of the many, saying hey dude, let’s raise the tax rate for those few people more than what we pay, and give that stolen loot to someone else. So, in post 24 when he said “Tax is inherently redistributative”, I was arguing that point. Taxing, in and of itself isn’t redistributive as the phrase is used, to include using the funds for authorized uses. Of course when it goes out of the treasury, it goes out to trade for other things and services, but unless you’re talking about government projects with no purpose, this isn’t what is meant by the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/84 "2012-09-14T16:16:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > “Class warfare” is a meaningless term… but one that sounds scary. > > If someone proposes something that you oppose and you can’t, or won’t, debate it on its merits, you label it “class warfare”, and hope that you thus win the debate. > > (Which is not to say that everything that has ever been labelled “class warfare” is a good idea, of course, but the label itself is pretty close to worthless.) Reminds me of the sign “They [the right wing] only call it class warfare when we fight back.” Class warfare is when people pit their own economic interests against everyone else’s. It’s often actually real, and not just an empty slogan. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/85 "2012-09-14T16:18:01Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I sometimes think college-educated veterans should be the only people allowed to vote, but that’s an issue for another thread. Uh, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/86 "2012-09-14T16:20:54Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > As a more extreme example, the life of England’s 16th-century nobility (or even royalty) was _greatly_ inferior, when measured in simple materialistic ways, to that of most Americans today. They had no electronic gadgets, antibiotics or high-speed transport, obviously, but their lives were “poorer” in more mundane ways. Hot baths were a special luxury even for the rich. Yet, would they change places with one of America’s working poor? Anyone making the “the poor shouldn’t complain, they have it better than cavemen argument” should think about life 200 years from now. We’ll live to 300, have perfect eyesight, all have 12 inch schlongs (even women - equality!) have houses that clean themselves, have intelligent digital assistants who can answer any question, and all have perfectly prepared food. So our rich should feel miserable, being poor relative to 200 years from now. So you are right, it is all about relative wealth, and all about reality, not fantasy. I did not feel at all underprivileged from not having YouTube in 1959. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/87 "2012-09-14T16:25:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We’ll live to 300, have perfect eyesight, all have 12 inch schlongs (even women - equality!) have houses that clean themselves, have intelligent digital assistants who can answer any question, and all have perfectly prepared food. I already have at least one of these. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/88 "2012-09-14T16:41:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I already have at least one of these. Siri’s pretty nifty, isn’t it ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/89 "2012-09-14T16:53:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Siri’s pretty nifty, isn’t it ? 🙂 Don’t have a smartphone at all. My food is horrible too and my house is a mess. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/90 "2012-09-14T16:55:05Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Screaming about class warfare and class separation won’t help a high school graduate make more money, and it won’t bring down the wealth level of the Silicon Valley and Wall Street millionaires and billionaires. Yes, it will, if the screaming leads to something more than just screaming. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/91 "2012-09-14T18:57:23Z")
The good money is in work done by educated people, while manufacturing has been exported to cheaper nations. Screaming about class warfare and class separation won’t help a high school graduate make more money, and it won’t bring down the wealth level of the Silicon Valley and Wall Street millionaires and billionaires. [/QUOTE] Why do people want to bring down other people’s wealth levels? I would submit that if people really cared, their time and energy would be better spent trying to bring poor people’s wealth level UP. But about all I see here is envy and schemes to screw other people out of what is theirs. And the GOOD money is having your money work for you while you’re on the golf course…Just an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/92 "2012-09-15T05:04:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Uh, yeah. Today I thought about the US Presidents of the last 100 years who were college-educated veterans. There were the Bushes, Carter, Kennedy, Eisenhower and Teddy Roosevelt. They are an extremely mixed bag including the best and worst. It made me think the idea of restricting voting to college-educated veterans is not good at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/93 "2012-09-15T09:18:50Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > The slur “redistribution of wealth” has nothing to do with the legitimate operation of the government. (meaning applying the law equally to raise revenues, and using those for authorized functions of government). It means the democratic process of the many, saying hey dude, let’s raise the tax rate for those few people more than what we pay, and give that stolen loot to someone else. Are you being wilfully dense or something ? I’m running out of ways to tell you, man. That is only one (1) (uno) usage of the phrase and one (pretty damn biased) definition of the concept. It’s not its only usage, or the “one proper” usage of the phrase either. Wiki it or something, I dunno. It’s like you’re insisting that no, blue means royal blue, and when people say the sky is blue they are making a mistake because the sky is not royal blue. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/94 "2012-09-15T15:16:32Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > If you don’t trade for food, that is a choice you are free to make. Still not the same as if you don’t pay your taxes, someone else will do bad things to you. Totally wrong. I can choose not to pay taxes very simply, by not taking advantage of government services, including not taking advantage of currency. (Yes, technically they’ll try to tax me on barter–but you show me someone who uses no tax-dollar-supported services who gets audited, and I’ll back down). You can freely choose not to pay taxes much more easily than you can freely choose not to pay for food. Thing is, whether or not you trade for food, you either eat or you die. So if you don’t trade for food, using the government-supported services such as currency and police protection of property, then you take food, using the state-of-nature methods everyone’s born with. And if you go for the state-of-nature method, the government cracks down on you for stealing. The free market is a government construct, supported by many different government programs, but most especially through police protection of property and a stable currency. Taxes are the price you pay for using the government-created free market. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/95 "2012-09-15T19:35:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Totally wrong. I can choose not to pay taxes very simply, by not taking advantage of government services, including not taking advantage of currency. (Yes, technically they’ll try to tax me on barter–but you show me someone who uses no tax-dollar-supported services who gets audited, and I’ll back down). You can freely choose not to pay taxes much more easily than you can freely choose not to pay for food. Not true. You can be taxed for not having health insurance. Remember? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/96 "2012-09-15T21:30:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Totally wrong. I can choose not to pay taxes very simply, by not taking advantage of government services, including not taking advantage of currency. How are you going to avoid paying property taxes on the house you bartered for? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/97 "2012-09-15T22:28:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How are you going to avoid paying property taxes on the house you bartered for? Live in a rented place or motel room ? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/98 "2012-09-16T04:42:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Not true. You can be taxed for not having health insurance. Remember? I do. Do you remember the exception for folks earning less than a certain amount, an exception that will surely apply to anyone not taking advantage of the government service called “currency”? **Shodan** , I repeat: show me anyone who’s been audited despite not using currency, and I’ll back down. Otherwise, you got nothin, even with your house example. The point, of course, is that we all use government services, every single freakin’ one of us. The government sets up the tent for the supposed free market. Taxes are the rent you pay for working under that tent. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/99 "2012-09-16T09:12:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I do. Do you remember the exception for folks earning less than a certain amount, an exception that will surely apply to anyone not taking advantage of the government service called “currency”? > > **Shodan** , I repeat: show me anyone who’s been audited despite not using currency, and I’ll back down. Otherwise, you got nothin, even with your house example. > > The point, of course, is that we all use government services, every single freakin’ one of us. The government sets up the tent for the supposed free market. Taxes are the rent you pay for working under that tent. This message beautifully highlights the difference between the way Conservatives and Liberals think. You see the government as something higher than the people - it is the provider of infrastructure and grants and many other good things, to which we are indebted. We use what it gives us, therefore we must pay our share of whatever ‘government’ decides it needs. To me, that’s turning the relationship between man and the state on its head. The government does not rule us, it serves us. It did not build the infrastructure - we did. We the people who chose the careers and educations that gave us the skills that other people need. We then entered into contracts to provide those skills for a wage. Recognizing that we do need a commons, and that it must be paid for, we agree to give up some of our property in exchange for access to the commons. And aside from the literal cost of the infrastructure, who we ‘owe’ for getting us where we are is our choice, not yours and not the government’s. Democrats talk about tax cuts as if they are gifts to the people. They’re not. A tax cut is the people’s way of saying, “we’ve decided not to let you spend this much of our money, because you don’t seen to be doing a very good job with it.” It’s the people’s money, not the government’s. Liberals think that the government should have it unless a strong case can be made that some of it should be turned over to the people. Conservatives and Libertarians see it as money that belongs to the people, and it’s up to the government to justify spending every nickel of it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349/100 "2012-09-16T12:15:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This message beautifully highlights the difference between the way Conservatives and Liberals think. You see the government as something higher than the people - it is the provider of infrastructure and grants and many other good things, to which we are indebted. We use what it gives us, therefore we must pay our share of whatever ‘government’ decides it needs. Nonsense. We ARE the government. WE are the ones who created the “free market” that you use. WE are the ones who create the currency that you use. And WE are the ones who get to set the entrance price for using these services. But you’re right that it does illustrate the difference between progressives and some conservatives: progressives never forget that the government is the people, whereas conservatives seem to think it’s an alien entity. Otherwise, your post was nonresponsive. The central point is that the state creates the very institution of private property via police protection, and facilitates its movement via currency. Without police protection, you own things only until someone else–often someone from among the have-nots (think Visigoths, Mongols)–takes it. Our system uses carrots and sticks to prevent this natural transfer of wealth from happening. The stick consists of the police. The carrot consists of Aid to Families with Dependent Children. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-class-warfare/634349.md?page=6)