# Is there anything wrong with this girls dance performance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450 "2010-05-14T17:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/21 "2010-05-14T19:03:07Z")
Nothing wrong with the dancing to me. In fact, as a person who has watched many dance competitions, those girls are really talented. I took dance class for years and couldn’t do some of those moves. IMHO the costumes were a bit much. Either show leg or stomach, not both. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/22 "2010-05-14T19:03:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > They’re dressing in the style of the times It’s a stylized bra, panties, and stockings with garters. That’s only “style of the times” for hookers. ETA: Or consenting adults in their bedroom. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/23 "2010-05-14T19:05:51Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > It’s a stylized bra, panties, and stockings with garters. That’s only “style of the times” for hookers. > > ETA: Or consenting adults in their bedroom. Or far dancers, just as they’ve seen any hundreds of times on TV. Or for going to the beach or the pool. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/24 "2010-05-14T20:48:19Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Or far dancers, just as they’ve seen any hundreds of times on TV. Or for going to the beach or the pool. Adult dancers, which is quite a difference. And for the record, my daughter wasn’t allowed to wear bikinis when was little either. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/25 "2010-05-14T20:51:53Z")
And the video’s been taken down. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/26 "2010-05-14T20:53:56Z")
I’ll be in my bunkbed. Just kidding, the video’s not on YouTube anymore and I haven’t seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/27 "2010-05-14T20:59:40Z")
The dancing was fine. The costumes, not so much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/28 "2010-05-14T21:03:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Meh, it’s just a dance routine, and it looked like they were having fun too. It’s not like they were poledancing. [aside]Why is it that pole dancing is regarded as explicitly sexual, anyway? It’s basically a gymnastics routine. We don’t regard someone performing on the parallel bars or balance beam as being necessarily sexual; why is a vertical pole any different? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/29 "2010-05-14T21:06:00Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Even sex itself isn’t necessarily abusive to a child. It’s probably a decent bet that in Ancient Greece, the apprentice warrior boys didn’t think a thing of practicing oral sex on the older men because that was the accepted norm of the time, no different from bringing your teacher an apple. It’s only when there’s an underlying tone of being taking advantage of in some odd way that children get confused. Yeahbut… we don’t live in ancient Greece. We live in a society where sexual contact between minors and adults is heavily stigmatized, where the sexualization of a seven year old is considered heinous. It doesn’t really matter whether ancient Greek boys thought anything of it or not, what matters is what these kids now, in this society, would think. And there is a shitload of evidence that in our current society, it’s a very damaging thing. As I said though, I think the costumes are inappropriate for the reasons stated but I’m not overwhelmed by outrage. I’m not convinced there is a direct relationship between dressing and dancing like a hussy in a single dance competition and becoming a sexually abused child. I think people worried about pedophiles are overreacting. I just think it crosses a line. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/30 "2010-05-14T21:22:44Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Yeahbut… we don’t live in ancient Greece. We live in a society where sexual contact between minors and adults is heavily stigmatized, where the sexualization of a seven year old is considered heinous. It doesn’t really matter whether ancient Greek boys thought anything of it or not, what matters is what these kids now, in this society, would think. And there is a shitload of evidence that in our current society, it’s a very damaging thing. Indeed. So if the kids have no reason to think it’s strange, if everyone around them acts like it’s simply a dance costume, then it doesn’t matter at all. Since we have no reason to think that anyone at the dance competition nor among their instructors was treating them as anything other than dancers in dance costumes, not sexy little temptresses, it’s very hasty to worry. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/31 "2010-05-14T21:25:41Z")
> [@danblather](#): > > but the costumer is always right! booooo!!! ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/32 "2010-05-14T21:32:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [aside]Why is it that pole dancing is regarded as explicitly sexual, anyway? It’s basically a gymnastics routine. We don’t regard someone performing on the parallel bars or balance beam as being necessarily sexual; why is a vertical pole any different? Pole Dancing = Strippers. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/33 "2010-05-14T21:36:47Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Indeed. So if the kids have no reason to think it’s strange, if everyone around them acts like it’s simply a dance costume, then it doesn’t matter at all. Since we have no reason to think that anyone at the dance competition nor among their instructors was treating them as anything other than dancers in dance costumes, not sexy little temptresses, it’s very hasty to worry. Yeah, I’m not really losing sleep over it. It seems more like a social faux pas than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/34 "2010-05-14T21:49:36Z")
So you’re adapting a dance from a hot Beyoncé video for little girls and your first thought is ‘You know, the original is great and all, but this could use more skin.’ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/35 "2010-05-14T21:55:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ll be in my bunkbed. > > Just kidding, the video’s not on YouTube anymore and I haven’t seen it. I found [another site hosting the video](http://www.trilulilu.ro/djandrew10/52326eef446527). ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/36 "2010-05-14T22:02:55Z")
I had my guns loaded, ready to tell everyone to unwind their panties about an innocent dance number when I saw that the video had been taken down. Then **Snowboarder Bo** posted a mirror. I think it’s pretty obvious that these girls are being sexualized. I felt dirty just watching it. I can’t wait for **Dio** to see this. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/37 "2010-05-14T22:10:38Z")
I didn’t offer an opinion in my OP because I wanted to see what way, if any, this discussion was going to go, but FWIW I thought the routine was awesome. Those girls are very talented, and the routine showcases group timing and what look like some fairly difficult dance moves. I just went and found [the actual Beyonce video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m1EFMoRFvY), and it seems that a lot of the girls’ routine was aping the dance moves in the video. And now that I’ve seen the video, I think the girls’ routine was even better. They are arguably better than the pros in the video! I agree that many of those moves would be seen as somewhat sexual-contexted were they made by a dancer 16 or older, to an audience of 16 or older people. However, I don’t think there was anything wrong with the dance routine as performed by 7 year old girls, because they have no frame of reference for the moves as anything other than dance moves. The movie _Rize_ featured [a young girl doing a lot of these impossibly sexual and violent dance moves](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJg7PpmjNcA), but as one of the guys in the film explains, it isn’t sexual at all to her: she’s just making her body do stuff that’s fun to do. And people watch and give approval. Why wouldn’t a kid continue to do that? And ffs why would you want to stop someone from having that in their lives? I thought the costumes were fine, but I understand The Raised Eyebrow Of Concern™ at it too. But really, go to any beach or public pool. These costumes were only really racy in that they were signifying lingerie. If the girls had been in hula costumes with little coconut shell tops, it would have been described as adorable more often than it was described as scandalous, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/38 "2010-05-14T22:20:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I didn’t offer an opinion in my OP because I wanted to see what way, if any, this discussion was going to go, but FWIW I thought the routine was awesome. Those girls are very talented, and the routine showcases group timing and what look like some fairly difficult dance moves. > > I just went and found [the actual Beyonce video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m1EFMoRFvY), and it seems that a lot of the girls’ routine was aping the dance moves in the video. And now that I’ve seen the video, I think the girls’ routine was even better. They are arguably better than the pros in the video! > > I agree that many of those moves would be seen as somewhat sexual-contexted were they made by a dancer 16 or older, to an audience of 16 or older people. However, I don’t think there was anything wrong with the dance routine as performed by 7 year old girls, because they have no frame of reference for the moves as anything other than dance moves. > > The movie _Rize_ featured [a young girl doing a lot of these impossibly sexual and violent dance moves](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJg7PpmjNcA), but as one of the guys in the film explains, it isn’t sexual at all to her: she’s just making her body do stuff that’s fun to do. And people watch and give approval. Why wouldn’t a kid continue to do that? And ffs why would you want to stop someone from having that in their lives? > > I thought the costumes were fine, but I understand The Raised Eyebrow Of Concern™ at it too. But really, go to any beach or public pool. These costumes were only really racy in that they were signifying lingerie. If the girls had been in hula costumes with little coconut shell tops, it would have been described as adorable more often than it was described as scandalous, IMO. Just because it isn’t sexual to her doesn’t mean she isn’t being sexualized. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/39 "2010-05-14T22:28:31Z")
Also, isn’t the implied message of the song “If you liked f’ing me so much, you should have asked me to marry you?” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/40 "2010-05-14T22:29:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Indeed. So if the kids have no reason to think it’s strange, if everyone around them acts like it’s simply a dance costume, then it doesn’t matter at all. Since we have no reason to think that anyone at the dance competition nor among their instructors was treating them as anything other than dancers in dance costumes, not sexy little temptresses, it’s very hasty to worry. Kids being kids, in all probability more than one of the girls has paused in public on occasion to practice her moves. On that occasion, it is certain that she got some funny looks. Knowing kids are perceptive devils, even if only unconsciously, the funny looks are likely to have registered on more than one of those kids as indicating “something funny is going on here.” By your own posts, it appears I am safe to assume you think that once a kid starts to think “something funny is going on here” something bad has happened to the kid thereby. Now here’s the question then. Who do we blame for this bad thing happening to this kid? The onlooker who gave her the funny look? Or the people who taught her the dance?\* The onlooker is interpreting her movements in light of the common, established cultural norms applicable to the region and situation. The people who taught her the dance also know these conventions, but chose for whatever reason to ignore them. Has someone who interprets actions naturally according to normal conventions done something blameworthy thereby? Has someone who has taught someone else to act in ways which flaut those conventions done something blameworthy thereby? The answer to both questions depends on what you’re asking about. Here I’m asking about seven year olds being taught to do stripper moves, by which I mean, dance moves that emphasize pelvic thrusting movements and which are as though the girl is manipulating her own breasts. (Nevermind that she doesn’t have any. The moves were “as-though”.) \*Probably strictly a false dilemma, but you’re welcome to offer alternatives of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450.md?page=3)