# Is there anything wrong with this girls dance performance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450 "2010-05-14T17:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/81 "2010-05-15T20:13:07Z")
Well put, **Sage Rat**. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/82 "2010-05-15T20:37:45Z")
I think it’s important to point out that this isn’t all about make sure your kid isn’t pedophile bait, but also about teaching little girls that dancing around in stripper costumes is part of what being a “big girl” is all about, before they’re old enough to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/83 "2010-05-15T20:43:28Z")
I’ll agree that the feminist claim is fairly strong, but I’d probably vote that beauty pageants are more crass of the two. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/84 "2010-05-15T21:11:27Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > These girls have already seen plenty of Saturday morning cartoons of anthropomorphic female animals flashing some thigh and batting their eyes at anthropomorphic male animals and the male animals liking it. Heck, from the time they were 4, they got descriptions of girls with smooth white skin like snow and red lips like blood, and being the most beautiful of them all, gaining the interests and undying fealty of her choice of man. I’m sorry to tell you but if you think children shouldn’t be aware of the differences of the sexes and the games we play until they’re well past puberty, the modern day US has severely failed on that point already. You may well be right that that would be the best course, but I’d vote that it’s pretty futile at this point. The concern isn’t with keeping children away from knowledge of acting sexy, it’s with making sure that their partners are their equals, and in general that’s not really a worry. I’m a father of two pretty little girls. They’re well aware of the terms of fairytale romance and cartoon sexiness, and they’re also aware of _some_ of the respects in which real life doesn’t precisely comport with those terms–their mother and I are divorced–and they’re _also_ aware that all of that is a matter _for grown-ups_. They can play games pretending to be princesses planning their weddings, or whatever, but _actually_ presenting themselves as “sexy,” or being approached on those terms, would strike them as ridiculous–scary if it was pressed. That seems, to me, to be exactly as it should be. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The sort of person who molests a child is, overwhelmingly, someone who’s looking for easy prey. He’s not any particularly more obsessed with children or whether they do or don’t look sexy, just whether or they’d feel good and whether he feels secure in his ability to hide the transgression. People who are actually sexually fixated on children are, no matter what the dress code, going to be attracted to whichever child is dressed the closest to whatever the most sexual style of fashion there is in that society. Even if you were to make every child dress the exact same, then it would be the child with the prettiest hair and the most sparkly eyes that attracts him. There essentially is no winning that battle by trying to rein in the standards of decorum. As an individual parent, keeping your child looking grubby and ugly _might_ protect her, but at the same time a child who appears to lack self-confidence might be targeted over one who is prettier because she seems easier to find an in with and because she can be more easily controlled. A girl who is self-confident enough to get out in front of lots of people and dance without hesitation might well be the last one targeted because the offender won’t feel like he can trust that she can be manipulated. Overall, you’re probably better to focus on making sure your child knows what to watch for in terms of inappropriate contact by an adult, that she not feel like she needs to be ashamed by informing anyone about it, and that she not go anywhere private with an adult without being on guard against such behavior and to scream her damn head off if he does the slightest thing. In end result, that would probably be far more effective in keeping your child safe than by keeping her uninformed about the dangers in life and rubbing mud into her hair and dressing her in all gray. You seem to be failing to see the difference between little girls being pretty little girls, and little girls being sex objects. Doing a suggestive dance in lingerie _is_ being a sex object. Adult women (or men) can make the choice to be sex objects if they like–choosing the contexts in which to do so with knowledge and responsibility. Children cannot make that choice, having neither the full relevant knowledge nor the adult responsibility. > [@Small\_Hen](#): > > I think it’s important to point out that this isn’t all about make sure your kid isn’t pedophile bait, but also about teaching little girls that dancing around in stripper costumes is part of what being a “big girl” is all about, before they’re old enough to understand. Exactly. A little girl who has been taught to be “sexy” may well become that easy target **Sage Rat** mentions, _because_ she doesn’t have a clear, definitive concept of sex and sexiness being _for grown-ups_. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/85 "2010-05-15T21:12:14Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > I’m sorry to tell you but if you think children shouldn’t be aware of the differences of the sexes and the games we play until they’re well past puberty, the modern day US has severely failed on that point already. That’s a false dichotomy, though. Not encouraging and training little girls to perform stripper-type moves to sexy songs is not the same thing as keeping children completely unaware of the differences of the sexes. While I agree that there’s probably little likelihood that this video will put these children in particular at higher risk of encountering a pedophile, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the effect of such performances being in the public eye is altogether insignificant. One of the things that pedophiles tell themselves to justify their actions is that children naturally **want** sexual attention, and feel gratified rather than frightened or repulsed by sexual arousal and sexual acts in adults. Training real-life little girls to imitate exotic dancers in public, lip-syncing sexually suggestive lyrics while they bump and grind in sexually suggestive ways in risque costumes and audiences enthusiastically cheer, encourages the delusion that children “want it” and that it’s okay and normal to view children in a sexual way. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/86 "2010-05-15T21:39:56Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > You seem to be failing to see the difference between little girls being pretty little girls, and little girls being sex objects. Doing a suggestive dance in lingerie _is_ being a sex object. Being a sex object is acting as a sex object or realizing you’re being treated as one. If that’s not happening, what clothes are being worn and what moves are being made is irrelevant. Just now, for example, two teen girls (14 or 15 perhaps) walked by outside the window wearing skin-tight shorts. If I was a man who’d been brought forward in time from 1910, I’d tell you that those two girls walking by were obviously being sex objects and oh how shameful it is. But my perception as the man from 1910 has nothing to do with whether or not those girls are harmed in any way by wearing those clothes. If they don’t realize that their clothing can be considered to be in poor taste, they don’t feel anyone objectifying them, they don’t feel any loss of personal worth, they don’t feel like they’re trying to look sexual, etc. then I as the man from 1910 can say whatever I want and think whatever I want and I’m still talking out my ass no matter how clearly correct my opinion must be. The only metric that matters is whether any harm comes to the girls. If it hasn’t, my opinion as an old fuddy duddy has nothing to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/87 "2010-05-15T21:45:39Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Being a sex object is acting as a sex object or realizing you’re being treated as one. If that’s not happening, what clothes are being worn and what moves are being made is irrelevant. So, you are proposing that these girls have _no idea_ that their outfits, their choreography, and the song lyrics are intended to be “sexy”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/88 "2010-05-15T22:06:25Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Being a sex object is acting as a sex object But the girls in question **are** acting as sex objects, although only in an imitative way, and they may well not be aware of or understand the “sexy” aspects of what they’re doing. They are imitating the words and the gestures and the costumes of a performance by adult women designed specifically to be erotically alluring. That’s acting as a sex object. > [@Sage Rat](#): > > Just now, for example, two teen girls (14 or 15 perhaps) walked by outside the window wearing skin-tight shorts. If I was a man who’d been brought forward in time from 1910, I’d tell you that those two girls walking by were obviously being sex objects and oh how shameful it is. But my perception as the man from 1910 has nothing to do with whether or not those girls are harmed in any way by wearing those clothes. That’s because you as a man from 1910 are unfamiliar with the cultural-mainstream America of 2010, and you don’t realize that here and now it’s considered culturally acceptable for teenage girls in warm weather to wear tight shorts in public. But the out-of-date reactions of somebody from a **different** culture are irrelevant to this situation. We’re talking as people who share the **same** culture in the here and now, and we’re trying to decide whether a certain behavior is culturally acceptable for our **own** society. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/89 "2010-05-15T22:41:31Z")
It’s not very difficult to make a guess about who here is raising a daughter and who is experiencing a healthy testosterone level. Young males often think there’s no such thing as too much sexual atmosphere. At least until they have daughters. I’m thinking that, in spite of massive efforts to teach healthy expression, practice and thoughts of sexuality in this country, many of us think that for some reason we don’t quite get it right. And for that reason it may be wise not to promote little girls looking like horny hookers even if it looks cute and really doesn’t mean anything. At least to us mature and healthy folks who certainly wouldn’t be turned on by sexual behavior by a child, would we? The argument that it’s all around us anyway doesn’t fly with me as reason to encourage a child to mimic it. Is it possible that encouragement for some things is best saved for later? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/90 "2010-05-15T22:49:25Z")
For anyone who’s interested, [here’s what 2 of the little girls’ parents have to say about it all](http://abcnews.go.com/gma/parenting/video/parents-defend-single-ladies-10645114). I like the fact that they talk about context a lot. Context is like comfort: it’s important and you gotta have it. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/91 "2010-05-15T22:56:07Z")
I’d been thinking about “context”, Bo. The odd thing about sexual arousal, though, is that is isn’t much given to appropriate context. Sex is one of the most powerful forces in human nature. It’s strongly reinforcing both physically and socially. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/92 "2010-05-15T23:26:30Z")
> [@Khaki\_Campbell](#): > > Aaargh, teh oppressive patriayayarchay !!!111!!11 > > Seriously, as a straight man, I perceive nothing sexual-intended in those female runner outfits. Because it’s impossible to render a female runner attractive for me. If given the choice between one of those and Edward Norton, I’d choose the latter. If I have to have sex with a human full of muscles, well, bring an attractive man. [Really?](http://psauiuc.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/allison-stokke11.jpg) Pretty sure you’re not straight. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/93 "2010-05-15T23:27:07Z")
As the parents say, unless you isolate your kids from TV and music, they are listening to this kind of popular music and exposed to many cultures already. Naturally they want to imitate what they see. At 8 or 9, it’s doubtful that they can understand the full impact of what will become sex; that requires the hormones to kick in at puberty. I say it’s not too early to learn about it in our sex-drenched culture. When they reach the right age, they will be ready. Let 'em bump and grind all they want. Good education and good, clean fun. I wish I knew more about sex before I had to use it – these kids are much luckier than I was, growing up in a more-repressive society. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/94 "2010-05-15T23:30:46Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > I’d been thinking about “context”, Bo. > > The odd thing about sexual arousal, though, is that is isn’t much given to appropriate context. > > Sex is one of the most powerful forces in human nature. It’s strongly reinforcing both physically and socially. Did you watch the parents? Do you know what the context of this dance routine was? Do you understand why the parents didn’t have a problem with the dance routine, or the outfits? I’m not asking if you agree with them, just if you watched it and understood the point they were making about the context of this routine. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/95 "2010-05-16T00:13:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Did you watch the parents? Do you know what the context of this dance routine was? Do you understand why the parents didn’t have a problem with the dance routine, or the outfits? > > I’m not asking if you agree with them, just if you watched it and understood the point they were making about the context of this routine. The context of this routine appears to be that sixty years from now, these girls will be able to tell their grandchildren how great-granny and great-grandad had her dress like a hooker and do a bump and grind routine when she was seven so they could post the video on the internet for pedophiles to masturbate to. Context is everything: in 2010 _some_ people thought that was a reasonable thing to do. Apparently, they didn’t think she would ever work it out. :rolleyes: (And you won’t believe what the ancient Greeks got up to…) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/96 "2010-05-16T00:24:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Did you watch the parents? Do you know what the context of this dance routine was? Do you understand why the parents didn’t have a problem with the dance routine, or the outfits? Because they are unfit parents who try and live out their lives through their kids because they got cut from dance team in high school by that bitch Heather who ended up being knocked up by the quarterback and is now all fat so who’s laughing now? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/97 "2010-05-16T00:25:25Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > [Really?](http://psauiuc.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/allison-stokke11.jpg) OMG ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/98 "2010-05-16T00:28:25Z")
I watched the video interview with the two parents. I don’t see anything there to make the case for a more favorable interpretation. Context? The context was a _performance on stage_ for a screaming audience, and they surely knew a video was being made. Maybe they didn’t intend the video to be seen by millions–but what difference does that make? Do they think people are critical of this _being out there_ on the net? People are critical of them _doing this_ to their daughters. The costumes were strictly for “freedom of movement”? :dubious: Please. I’ve seen dancers, gymnasts and acrobats doing more challenging moves without their costumes bearing the slightest resemblance to lingerie. If there was _nothing wrong_ with the performance, why exactly are they “doing everything they can to control [the video] and stop it”? Because the parents are catching hell for it! > [@Musicat](#): > > As the parents say, unless you isolate your kids from TV and music, they are listening to this kind of popular music and exposed to many cultures already. Parents _are_ responsible for not only placing reasonable controls on what kids are exposed to, but also in assisting the interpretation of what they do see. > [@Musicat](#): > > At 8 or 9, it’s doubtful that they can understand the full impact of what will become sex; Yes. They are being taught to be–or pretend to be, or think they are being–“sexy” without knowing what that means. That’s pretty much the problem here. > [@Musicat](#): > > I say it’s not too early to learn about it in our sex-drenched culture. When they reach the right age, they will be ready. > > Let 'em bump and grind all they want. Good education and good, clean fun. I wish I knew more about sex before I had to use it – these kids are much luckier than I was, growing up in a more-repressive society. Premature sexualization is not sex education. It’s more like the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/99 "2010-05-16T00:29:21Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > The context of this routine … post on the internet for pedophiles to masturbate to. BIG jump in context. Nowhere did the parents say that. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450/100 "2010-05-16T00:31:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > For anyone who’s interested, [here’s what 2 of the little girls’ parents have to say about it all](http://abcnews.go.com/gma/parenting/video/parents-defend-single-ladies-10645114). > > I like the fact that they talk about context a lot. Context is like comfort: it’s important and you gotta have it. God I want to punch that father. He seems like a smug prick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-anything-wrong-with-this-girls-dance-performance/539450.md?page=6)