Do you really think 8yo girls are able to “interpret” sexual dynamics thrust upon them by depraved adults?
I would like to add, that, although I’m not sure, It’s likely that the performers did not choreagraph the routine or choose their dress.
*Yes, I know responding to myself is gay. If only the SDMB deities would extend the edit lock-out.
At 8, in the modern US? There’s a good chance that you have at least a basic idea of sex and what’s sexual. But understanding something as sexual isn’t really necessary, it’s whether you can read the body language of those around you to understand whether or not they’re treating you fairly. At 8 you might not understand why Dad is making you do this odd thing, but you’ll know that he’s told you not to tell anyone outside of the house, forbidden you from doing the same thing elsewhere, and that he acts creepy around you when you’re doing it. If he demands that you do it even though his creepy behavior makes you hate it, and yet persists even though you’re crying, then yeah, that can mess with you. That dad’s motivation is sexual may be lost on you, but that he’s doing something wrong and abusive may still come through. Or it might not be until later that you learn a bit more about life and then figure out what he’d been doing all these years, and then it hits you all at once.
It’s impossible that they choreographed it, but it’s decently possible that they picked it out for themselves, pointing at some music video they liked and their idiot dance instructor going, “Duh, okay!”
Sadly, I concede this point.
Dude, I am lost.
What outrage are you talking about? Are you saying my previous post showed some kind of outrage? I certainly didn’t intend it that way–practically the opposite, in fact.
And, “lambasting?”
I think you and I have had completely different ideas about what’s going on in this thread.
Okay, listen. Do you think the girls shouldn’t have been taught that dance and shouldn’t have performed it in those outfits? If you think that, then it turns out we agree about what I took to be the most relevant point in this thread.
But, given what else you’ve said in the thread, I’m led to ask, why do you think they shouldn’t have been taught the dance etc.?
See, I agree with this. (I suspect most people here do, whatever their opinion of the video in question in this thread.)
I guess the disagreement is about whether the intent or results were bad.
More to say later about that.
Okay, I finally saw it. Son of a bitch - that’s just wrong. The people who dressed them like that and the parents who allowed it should be in jail for child abuse. That whole damn video is borderline kiddie porn.
Children have it rough enough these days. For pity’s sake, let them be children and not try to make them hookers at age 7.
I’m quite late to the thread, but just have to add my two cents since I know you all care so much about what I think. The video is appalling, and so is the “Boyfriend’s Back” one. I’m astounded that the parents defend this, and their argument that “this is normal for a dance competition and it wasn’t meant for worldwide consumption” seemed to me to completely miss the point.
It doesn’t matter that it was for a dance competition. If that’s what dance competitions are doing now, then there is something horribly wrong with them. (A lot of the moms I know whose daughters are in dance look for the programs that advertise “modest” or “appropriate” qualities, because that’s code for ‘we won’t dress them like strippers, they’ll be in normal dancewear.’)* It’s entirely possible to wear nice costumes and still see all the moves and have perfect freedom. I’m not in the popular dance world, but I am hearing that the competitions are starting to recognize this problem.
Dressing up little girls in what can only be described as hoochie outfits–more risque than what the actual dance video had!–is so obviously wrong that I’m not even sure I can articulate it. But–IMO when you teach little girls to act in a way that is meant to be sexual, they end up with this veneer of sexuality that they don’t understand or mean to project. They just know that this is the ‘right’ way to act if you want to be a big girl, or be cute and fun. So what happens when someone takes them up on the message they’re sending? When they realize, years later, exactly what it was they were told to do?
And of course I have a huge problem with the whole idea that this is how cute, ‘big girls’ act. Maybe it is–in certain situations, with knowledge of what’s going on. But that’s not, by a long shot, how grown women act in public most of the time. If we teach girls that their bodies and how much skin they can show is the most important thing about them, well–again, so obviously wrong. But at the same time, it’s the message our society sends girls all the time, without ever ceasing for a moment. Dance can be a wonderful way for girls to do positive, strong things with their bodies–or it can hammer that message home.
I saw a short interview with the girls. It was interesting to me that they didn’t seem to understand one thing about what the problem even was. They perkily explained that they give 120%, 200% and they just love to dance! They don’t seem to have a tiny little clue about what those grinds and (pointless) bust-enhancing moves are supposed to do. What a terrible misuse of the girls and their talent–and they are being used. And you know what, it was the dancing they did so well, not the stripper moves. The kicks and spins and all were great. They could have worn nice costumes, left out the shimmies and done more actual dancing, and had an amazing, wonderful routine that could have been leaked to the world with pride.
My own daughter takes Irish dance. I really like it. OK, the Irish dance industry as a whole has some very weird elements that I take issue to (wigs and gaudy expensive costumes, mostly), but modesty is not one of them. This whole thing has made me unexpectedly grateful for my granola/Celtic little corner of the dance world.
*I googled our local popular dance studio and this was the description of the kids’ hip hop class: “Description: learn the latest hip hop moves with great music kids love! Each day will include 2 hours of hip hop instruction (including stretch and warm-up, tricks and skills, rhythm and musicality, and choreography). 1 hour of freestyle and creative dance. Clean and appropriate music and movement for children.”
[derailment]
did those girls win?
[/derailment]
still harboring shock and disdain to this video, but overall no more than the family that pushes their kid into spelling bees, sports, or any other fanatical behavior. ESPECIALLY not the parents that are lugging their kid up to everest.
Did anyone manage to get a copy of the “Boyfriend’s Back” video before it was moved?
Now I’m insanely curious to see what sort of stupid the dance coach came up with.
And just a thought for those that say its ok because the kids don’t realise it sexual.
How about when they get older, and they do realise the sexuality involved? How will they feel then about what they were doing when they were young?
When “older” did you mean? In 10 years, when they are all legal adults? In 25 years when they have children themselves? In 50 years when they are approaching retirement age? At what age would this supposed regret have to surface to be credible? Or is your position that these girls will regret this, at some undetermined far-future point in time, without a doubt?
How old would you suggest?
I can imagine a 16 year old looking at this video and going “ewwwww, what did you ask me to do, so embarrassing”
Ask yourself, would the dance moves
IF so, why not? been any less impressive if there were done in a one piece leotard?
Could the titty wobbles have been replaced by another move without losing the synchronisation?
So if the girls don’t express regret by the time they are 17, will that satisfy you that there is no regret to be had, and thus the girls themselves are okay with their childhood antics? Will that also allow us to conclude that the girls themselves are okay, and haven’t been scarred by this?
I don’t really care what the girls are wearing. I didn’t think their outfits were obscene. Why do you think that a skintight, form-fitting leotard is okay? Is it somehow “sexless” to you because there won’t be any skin showing? I mean, your post seems to suggest that you would be okay with this dance routine, as long as the girls were wearing leotards instead of the Madonna-esque outifts they wore; is that correct?
I suppose that any move in the girls routine could have been replaced by any other dance move. If by “titty wobbles” you mean the shoulder shimmies the girls did, I think you really need to look hard at yourself and ask why you see what you see. I never would have thought to call that move a “titty wobble”, not even when it’s done by a 30 year old dancer.
Please don’t play that game. Vague boundaries are still boundaries. Everyone knows this, and pretending otherwise is basically wordplay.
Sometimes you say reasonable things in this thread, other times its like you haven’t even been reading the thread. It’s not a mere physical description of the outfit that determines that there’s something wrong with it. It’s a description of the outfit’s relation to the culture and the context in which it was worn. The outfit signifies lingerie. Lingerie signifies sex. The moves also signify sex, exacerbating the signification of the outfit.
Of course his post doesn’t suggest that–since he mentions the dance moves themselves as being part of the problem, not just the outfit. As you go on to mention in the following!
It’s well known–and confirmed by a dancer in this very thread–that one of the moves executed has as its function the drawing of attention to breasts through exaggerated movement of them. These girls don’t have breasts, but the significance of the move is understood by everyone (educated into mainstream American culture) who sees anyone execute the move.
Jogging bras, and bras meant to be worn as underwear, perform similar functions and reveal the same amount of skin, but they have different meanings. If a woman exposes her bra in public that is just not the same as exercising wearing a jogging bra. A Martian (or apparently some posters) would not understand that difference, but it is clear none the less.
Having the girls wear thigh high black stockings with a garter was chosen consciously to convey “sexiness”. Loose leg warmers would have conveyed a different meaning.