An issue I never even discussed, tho you quoted the whole of my previous post.
I think you’re going to have to show me that learning to dance like Beyonce, or even just watching the video, is somehow bad or more sexualizing than anything else an average 7 year old girl sees or hears or does or knows.
I think Chronos is wondering why that is. What made it plausible for a stripper to dance on a vertical pole in the first place?
You discussed it right here:
The passage only makes sense if I attribute to you an assumption that there’s only something wrong with something like this if the girl is in some way aware of its sexual aspect.
Incidentally, I don’t buy the idea that we can be confident these girls have no frame of reference for these moves as being “anything other than dance moves.” Lots of kids know a lot of stuff.
Why would anyone need to show you this? People have said the dance in the video was bad. They haven’t argued that it’s worse than something else–they’ve just argued that it’s bad in itself.
Besides, how is your argument supposed to go? You said earlier the girls have no frame of reference for this as sexual, yet here you as much as claim that the girls are probably already sexualized anyway to some extent because of popular culture. There’s a tension there if not a contradiction. You then seem to be arguing that since they’re already a bit sexualized, it’s okay to continue sexualizing them on stage. (After all, you add, they don’t know they’re being sexualized. So it’s okay!)
On topic, though not exactly part of the debate:
For my first kid my wife and I took one of these “so you’re going to have a baby” type classes, talking us through various options we had concerning childbirth etc. At the end of the series of six sessions, the lady running the class invited us all to her house for a Christmas party.
During that party, she showed us a video of her daughter dancing in a competition of some kind. I don’t remember how old the kid was–it was school age, I do know that–but what is germane to this thread is, she was dancing on top of a cage, her moves centering around a vertical pole.
At one point the lady hosting the party turned to all of us and grinned, saying “This is the part that makes her father uncomfortable.”
No, I didn’t. I’m talking about the dance moves, not the girls.
That’s a lot of assuming. Also a lot of “only”.
An argument fraught with problems for even the most argent advocate, in that all day long every child encounters language, dress, behaviours, etc. that sexualize them in some way. How is this any different than any of that? So: it’s either okay, or it’s not okay. If some of it is ok, and some of it is not okay, then it seems reasonable to conclude that the “not okay” stuff is somehow worse than the okay stuff.
Now you’re just making stuff up and arguing with yourself.
There’s no contradiction in my opinions at all. I also understand where people with different opinions are coming from, but I think they see a line in the sand that got crossed where I see a line running roughly parallel, not perpendicular, to the kids’ lives.
I saw the video yesterday, I thought the choice of song was fine and the moves were probably okay too but the outfits were HORRID. And it’s not just that they’re completely age-inappropriate, they don’t even fit the lyrics – they’re these faux-burlesque outfits and the song is actually not about being a seductive sex kitten. If someone had actually put those girls in something more akin to the Beyonce video (simple, unembellished) then it would have given the whole routine a different feel.
So I’m sure it won’t scar them for life or anything, but yeah, a bad idea.
A distinction with no relevant difference. We’re all talkng about the dance moves executed by the girls. To talk about the one is to talk about the other.
How does that make the dance okay, is what I’m asking.
This brings back a flip-side memory for me. In the 80’s some kids in an elementary school I was visiting did a dance number to the song, “Dancing in the sheets” where they cavorted around with sheets over their heads, like ghosts in a Charlie Brown Halloween special.
To this day I’m not sure how many of the adults in this strict Mormon community made the connection with the lyrics in this song…after all, it apparently was approved by the supervising teacher.
Just speculation, but probably because having something sturdy to both leverage dance moves off of and to shmooze up to made for a more interesting dance (presumably in more ways than one), and because there’s nothing easier to mount on a stage than a vertical bar.
Not to mention the phallic symbolism…
Good thing Cesario’s no longer around.
They yanked the video away due to a copyright violation.
I was about to mention the dance routine in Little Miss Sunshine…
That’s what dancing is these days. You people who think it’s too sexual are a bunch of adorable old grouches.
Did someone say the girls are 7 years old? They look like 9 or 10 to me, and they are quite talented (in a good way).
A lot of the moves, and the costumes, were definitely sexual-looking. What kind of grossed me out, though, was not so much that but the lip-syncing to the sexual lyrics.
“Here’s a man that makes me, then takes me…pull me into your arms…” I think it’s rather ick for very young girls to be mouthing sexy-sounding lyrics, whether or not they understand that they’re saying.
And irrespective of the sexy part, since the OP asked about “anything wrong”, I find it kind of depressing as a feminist to see little girls simulating aggressive husband-hunting. Waving their little left hands around and singing “if you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it”. It just doesn’t seem cute to me to see little girls aping the emotional and sexual desires of adult women.
As far as the actual dance steps (as opposed to the bumping and grinding and site-of-future-boob thrusting) went, though, I agree that the girls were fantastically talented and well-rehearsed, and the synchronized spins and kicks were just amazing.
OK, first of all those girls are amazing, and this comes from someone who was once the golden child of a ballet studio. They are very good.
It kills me to think of the type of leadership they must be under, and how their talent will be wasted because of it.
The moves where they are shaking their shoulders? See, that move is intended to jiggle the breasts. It’s not a dance move, it’s an enticement move.
Ditto the one where they plie down and then stay down with their knees open and move their crotches back and forth? Yeah, just no. On so many levels.
And if anyone ever suggested that Celtling put on a costume like that I would beat them senseless - then call the police. I don’t want her wearing that shit in college. Not even on Halloween. I think I’m going to vomit.
The fact that someone even makes and markets those costumes in those colors in those sizes is frankly appalling.
Just. Ick. Entirely. If you can’t see it, or are denying it, then I would suggest you get professional help. Especially Mr. NAMBLA with the “Ancient Greece” up there. Please tell me you don’t live anywhere near me, because I do not want my daughter running into you at the playground.
All of which totally sucks because those girls could be great. But they’ll need the wisdom and support of parents and teachers who care about their well being; I doubt they’re going to get it.
Hmmmm, I’m normally on the other side of these things, but I found the costumes disturbing. I would not let my kid dance in an outfit like that. And for those who think the kids were great dancers, really? They were in no way coordinated with each other or the music.
Costumes = hookers/strippers even if the kids were unaware of the relationship any adult would see it.
I had to come back to say that this is the first time I’ve ever wished a thread was in the Pit. "Cause there is sooooo much more I’d like to say about the parents who bought those costumes.
But then, I get seriously ticked off at the costumes for the Olypmic track team too. How is it that the men run best in bike shorts, and the women run best in a near-thong? http://www.elitefeet.com/wp-content/uploads/olympic-trials.jpg vs http://www.elitefeet.com/wp-content/uploads/tyson-gay-olympic-trials.jpg
So, yeah, it’s a sore point.
Oy, I recommended investigating whoever made the decision. First reply, second paragraph. Let’s not be selectively quoting, and let’s make sure that we understand what’s being said before demonizing it. Anyone in modern society who has boys sucking him off is a pedophile and rapist and his having done this is quite likely to mess the kid up.
The point remains that what does or doesn’t constitute abusive behavior is at least 90% context based. A spanking for being bad is just and acceptable (by most people’s standards). A spanking for dad’s pleasure is just messed up. If you remove the ability for adults to spank children, then the worry of people spanking their kids for sexual rather than corrective purposes is removed. But either way, in those cases where the kid was spanked for just reasons, it’s not going to screw up the kid because he understands that he deserved it. In those cases where he was spanked because dad wanted to get off on it, the kid understands that he’s being used as an object and his personal value is being diminished by someone who he should have been able to trust.
I’m sorry that psychology is nuanced but that’s not my fault. Pointing out the nuances isn’t an argument for or against anything; it just enables us to figure out whether or not something that happened is likely to be harmful. The girl dancers are unlikely to be harmed thanks to these nuances, and that’s a good thing. It’s good when the potential for damage gets averted. But that doesn’t mean that we want to get to the point where we have to be asking ourselves whether or not harm could have been caused. Prevention is also a good thing.
I just wanted to say that I thought Kimstu (post #54) and TruCelt (post #55) made some really good points.
Thanks, I’m glad someone else feels that way. It’s not even close to being OK.
