# Is there Biblical support for the concept of Hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320 "2005-08-23T20:24:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/1 "2005-08-23T20:24:15Z")
Now, I occaisonally try to plow through the Bible, meaning I am familiar with the first five or so books in both testaments, but for all I know the last book in the old testement is written in gangster rap. I know there’s pretty good biblical support for Heaven, but Purgatory was made up whole cloth by church leaders. I was wondering what, if any, biblical support there was for hell. I have come accross passages claiming that unbelievers would be punished, but nothing that implies that it is eternal, or happens during the afterlife. Also, does the bible support the common view of hell as being all fiery and burninng, as the common view holds, or is it more general? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/2 "2005-08-23T20:37:24Z")
The Old Testament is explicit that there is an afterlife, most clearly in I Samuel 28. You’re correct that there’s nothing written that implies that punishment for sins necessarily occurs in the afterlife. On the other hand, taking the existence of an afterlife as a given, there’s nothing written that restricts punishment to the Earthly plane either. And since it can be readily observed that some people who are very, very bad live quite a comfortable Earthly life (Kim Jong Il, to name one contemporary, non-controversial example), it follows quite easily that there not only _can_ be punishment in the afterlife, but that there _must_ be. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/3 "2005-08-23T20:43:33Z")
[Isiaih chapter 14](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2014;&version=49;) gives a pretty good description of those who do not follow God being cast to. . . well, depending on which translation you read, it might be cast out of Heaven to earth, or to some other place. [Luke 16](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Luke%2016;&version=31;) the story of Lazarus, states in pretty much every translation, that after they died, Lazarus went to a good place and the rich man went to a bad place where he was tormented by fire. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/4 "2005-08-23T20:44:09Z")
From **Luke Chapter 16** : > [@](#): > > 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: > > 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, > > 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. > > 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; > > 23 **And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.** > > 24 **And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.** > > 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. > > 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. > > 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: > > 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. > > 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. > > 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. > > 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/5 "2005-08-23T20:44:59Z")
Purgatory is a Greek concept that was absorbed into the church. The fire and brimstone version of hell was also absorbed into the church and doesn’t have much support in the Bible. Hell in the Bible is only mentioned a few times and isn’t described in much detail. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/6 "2005-08-23T21:18:59Z")
There is actually some Biblical support for the concept of Purgatory, though it’s not nearly so straightforward nor so strong as that for Heaven or Hell. The key is a passage which exhorts us on Earth to pray for the souls of those who have died. The question then becomes, to what purpose are these prayers? A person in Heaven does not need our prayers, and a person in Hell cannot benefit from them. The concept of Purgatory is an attempt to address this dilemma: The idea is that a soul must pass through Purgatory in preparation for entering Heaven. Purgatory is not Hell, but it is unpleasant, or at least less pleasant than Heaven, so a quick passage through Purgatory is desirable. The doctrine, then, is that the prayers of those still on Earth can in some way ease the passage of souls through Purgatory through prayer, and that’s why the Bible calls upon us to pray for the dead. Like I said, this is not direct, and one can doubtless come up with alternate explanations, but the root of the chain of reasoning is Biblical. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/7 "2005-08-23T21:47:12Z")
Thanks for your responses. I now know more than I previously did about christianity ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/8 "2005-08-23T22:15:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There is actually some Biblical support for the concept of Purgatory, though it’s not nearly so straightforward nor so strong as that for Heaven or Hell. The key is a passage which exhorts us on Earth to pray for the souls of those who have died. The question then becomes, to what purpose are these prayers? A person in Heaven does not need our prayers, and a person in Hell cannot benefit from them. The concept of Purgatory is an attempt to address this dilemma: The idea is that a soul must pass through Purgatory in preparation for entering Heaven. Purgatory is not Hell, but it is unpleasant, or at least less pleasant than Heaven, so a quick passage through Purgatory is desirable. The doctrine, then, is that the prayers of those still on Earth can in some way ease the passage of souls through Purgatory through prayer, and that’s why the Bible calls upon us to pray for the dead. In particular: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins”. (2 Macc 12:46) Also: Mt 12:32, which implies expiation of sin can occur after death; 1 Cor 3:15, again suggesting that a soul can be saved through fire after death. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/9 "2005-08-23T22:15:54Z")
The Luke story says Hades in Greek, not Hell. There are three words in the Bible that are commonly translated as “Hell” and none of them refer to the Christian concept of a place of eternal torment. Those words are: 1. _Sheol_. A Jewish concept of an underworld simolar to the Greek Hades. Tjis was a place where _everyone_ went, not just bad people and it was not regarded as permanent. It was only sort of a holding tank for the dead until the day of judgement…the day that all the dead would be physically resurrected and judged. After Israel was occupied by Greeks, it began to acquire some Greek ideas about punishment/reward in _Sheol_. That influence manifested itself in the idea that _Sheol_ was divided into a good part (called the "side (or bosom) of Abraham) and a bad part where bad people may have been punshed. But this punishment was not eternal. All people good and bad were to be resurrected for a day of judgement. At that time, good people would get eternal life and the bad people would be annihilated. 2. _Gehenna_, or the Valley of Hinnon, a real valley outside of Jerusalem which was used as a garbage dump and a disposal site for the carcasses of animals along with (sometimes) the bodies of criminals. People burned fires more or less continuously there in an attempt to control the stench. Gehenna was also believed to have been a site of human sacrifice by ancient Canaanites and so was basically considered to be forsaken by God. Gehenna eventually came to be a symbol for ignoble death, and a figurative site for where bad people would be annihilated on judgement day (that’s _annihilated_, not tortured). Gehenna is a word that Jesus uses several times in Matthew and which often gets translated as “Hell.” _Hades_, the Greek underworld, as cited above in Luke. In the New Testament (which was written in Greek) Hades basically amounts to a Greek translation of _Sheol_. The Christian concept of Hell as a place of eternal, conscious torment, is not in the Bible ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/10 "2005-08-23T23:36:42Z")
I’d been reading the Bible for several months and had made it through about the first half of the Old Testament when I had an epiphany of sorts. It struck me that nowhere had there been a mention of heaven other than the place where God lives, and nowhere had there been a mention of hell at all. I had always assumed that some concept of the afterlife would be the foundation of any religion. The American Indians had their Happy Hunting Grounds, the Egyptian mummies were all decked out for their life in the hereafter, and today’s Christians can’t shut up about it. But here I was, half way through the Old Testament and not a peep about going to heaven. Good people were rewarded during their time on earth material with wealth, lots of sons and land. I would have thought that some kind of heaven and hell concept would be a given for almost any religion. How else can you explain the unfairness of bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people without the idea that it all gets evened out in the end somehow? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/11 "2005-08-23T23:38:54Z")
**Dio** , where is this concept of \*Sheol \*discussed? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/12 "2005-08-24T00:10:46Z")
> [@El Zagna](#): > > **Dio** , where is this concept of \*Sheol \*discussed? [http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-34,GGLG:en&q=Sheol](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-34,GGLG:en&q=Sheol) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/13 "2005-08-24T00:23:54Z")
> [@El Zagna](#): > > **Dio** , where is this concept of \*Sheol \*discussed? Are you asking where in the Bible or where in general? Here is a [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol) article about it which indexes the Biblical references. _Sheol_ is also discussed in the Talmud. Its origins are a bit murky and may have simply started as a word for the grave. ---
**Author:** ![StuffLikeThatThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@StuffLikeThatThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StuffLikeThatThere)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/14 "2005-08-24T01:38:20Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > In particular: > “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins”. (2 Macc 12:46) Do note, however, that this quote is taken from 2 Maccabees, which is not recognized by all Christian denominations (most Protestants, actually) as part of the canon of Scripture. As it is far and away the strongest point for purgatory, these denominations as a rule consider purgatory an incorrect doctrine. Not trying to nitpick, but that seems like a fairly important thing to know. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/15 "2005-08-24T01:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > The Luke story says Hades in Greek, not Hell. > > . . . > > The Christian concept of Hell as a place of eternal, conscious torment, is not in the Bible I expect better of you, **Dio**. You cannot dismiss the Lukan story of Lazarus and the rich man simply by declaring that Luke used the word _Hades_. Luke also described the rich man as being in torment and pleading for a drop of water to bring relief from the flames (neither of which are aspects of the traditional Greek Hades), so Luke was obviously using the material in non-traditional ways. There are enough other passages that _can_ be argued different ways that it is simply not accurate to claim that “it is not there.” Now, there are any number of arguments that indicate that the current belief in everlasting torment was not what the earliest Christians believed, but your flat declaration, even if supportable by argument, cannot be justifiably asserted as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/16 "2005-08-24T01:56:10Z")
> [@El Zagna](#): > > I would have thought that some kind of heaven and hell concept would be a given for almost any religion. How else can you explain the unfairness of bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people without the idea that it all gets evened out in the end somehow? Cecil himself has commented on this: [Does any major religion not believe in life after death?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_143.html) Arjuna34 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/17 "2005-08-24T02:04:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I expect better of you, **Dio**. You cannot dismiss the Lukan story of Lazarus and the rich man simply by declaring that Luke used the word _Hades_. Luke also described the rich man as being in torment and pleading for a drop of water to bring relief from the flames (neither of which are aspects of the traditional Greek Hades), so Luke was obviously using the material in non-traditional ways. There are enough other passages that _can_ be argued different ways that it is simply not accurate to claim that “it is not there.” > > Now, there are any number of arguments that indicate that the current belief in everlasting torment was not what the earliest Christians believed, but your flat declaration, even if supportable by argument, cannot be justifiably asserted as fact. Jesus also directly referred in that parable to the “Bosom of Abraham” which indicates that he was talking about divisions of _Sheol_ (naturally rendered in Greek as "Hades) which included some places of _temporary_ punishment. _Sheol_ was not eternal. I don’t think it’s unfair to flatly state that the Christian concept of eternal hell is not in the Bible. That’s falsifiable enough. All anyone has to do is cite the verse. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/18 "2005-08-24T02:08:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I expect better of you, **Dio**. You cannot dismiss the Lukan story of Lazarus and the rich man simply by declaring that Luke used the word _Hades_. Luke also described the rich man as being in torment and pleading for a drop of water to bring relief from the flames (neither of which are aspects of the traditional Greek Hades), so Luke was obviously using the material in non-traditional ways. There are enough other passages that _can_ be argued different ways that it is simply not accurate to claim that “it is not there.” > > Now, there are any number of arguments that indicate that the current belief in everlasting torment was not what the earliest Christians believed, but your flat declaration, even if supportable by argument, cannot be justifiably asserted as fact. Isn’t Lazarus and the rich man obviously a parable not to be taken literally? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/19 "2005-08-24T02:19:05Z")
Literally or not it would still suggest a belief about the afterlife, so it’s not an unreasonable cite. I should also mention that Hades is the word the Septuagint uses for _Sheol_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/20 "2005-08-24T02:22:34Z")
There are several OT references to something very like a Hell. Isa 30:33 “For Topheth is ordained of old; yea for the king it is prepared; he has made it deep _and_ large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood: the breath of the _Lord_, like a stream of brimstone doth kindle it”. Topheth is another term of Hell, and is also another word for Gehenna. Here, it does not seem to mean literaly the valley of Hinnon, but a figuerative fiery punishment in the afterlife for King Hezekiah, whose polcies Isiah deeply disapproved of (which indeed, did lead to ruin). Then there’s Numbers 16:33, which speaks of “the Pit” or _Sheol._ (Job 33:24 also speaks of “the Pit” or Sheol. Then there’s Isa 5:14, Isa 28:18, and maybe a few others. As DtC said, in later times, the Jews were starting to come into the idea of there being a place of Punishment- not nessesarily eternal Punishment (except perhaps for the very worst), but still punishment- even with fire and brimstone. The OT has some 15 references to Heaven, occording to my source, so, I am afraid you’re wrong, **El Zagna**. The 1st is in Genesis! I refer you also to Deut 26:15, 1Kings 8:30, 1 Chon 16:31, 2 Chron 6:33 and 39, and so forth. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320.md?page=2)