# Is there Biblical support for the concept of Hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320 "2005-08-23T20:24:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/21 "2005-08-24T02:26:05Z")
Mark 9:42-49 has a pretty graphic description. Revelation also has some data on Great Judgments, name being written in book of life, yadda yadda. In the end: anyone can read _anything_ they want into the Bible. Doesn’t matter what the Bible says–you’re going to believe what you want to believe, and the Bible will support exactly your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/22 "2005-08-24T02:37:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Luke story says Hades in Greek, not Hell. > > There are three words in the Bible that are commonly translated as “Hell” and none of them refer to the Christian concept of a place of eternal torment. Y’know, maybe, just maybe, it’s possible that the Greeks didn’t have a word that adequately described the Christian concept of Hell, and the best they could come up with was Hades. And the chapter from Luke implies that the bad place where the rich man resides may be a little more than simply a transitional home: \*And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. \* Any literary work which started as oral tradition in ancient languages, translated centuries later into Greek, then into other languages, and finally into different styles within languages is bound to have some room for different interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/23 "2005-08-24T02:39:35Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > …But for all I know the last book in the old testement is written in gangster rap. Y’know, the King James Version of Malachi 1 _could_ be set to a rap beat… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/24 "2005-08-24T02:48:09Z")
Topheth was a specific part of the Valley of Hinnon- a hill where it was believed that children had once been sacrificed to Molech. It was probably a Canaanite word for an altar of burnt sacrifice. > **[Topheth Meaning in Bible - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version](https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/topheth-2.html)** > > Learn about Topheth original meaning in the Bible using the Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version. > **[Tophet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topheth)** > > Tophet or Topheth (Hebrew: תֹּוֹפֶת‎ Tōp̄eṯ; Greek: Ταφέθ Taféth; Latin: Topheth) is a term originating in the Hebrew Bible. In the Bible, it was a location in Jerusalem in the Gehinnom, where worshipers engaged in a ritual involving "passing a child through the fire", most likely child sacrifice. Traditionally, the sacrifices have been ascribed to a god named Moloch. The Bible condemns and forbids these sacrifices, and the tophet is eventually destroyed by king Josiah, although mentions by the p... ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/25 "2005-08-24T02:54:57Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Y’know, maybe, just maybe, it’s possible that the Greeks didn’t have a word that adequately described the Christian concept of Hell, and the best they could come up with was Hades. The Christian concept of Hell didn’t exist yet at the time Luke was written. Hades was the way Sheol was translated in the Greek version of the OT and the divisions of Sheol were part of Jewish beliefs in the 1st century CE. > [@](#): > > And the chapter from Luke implies that the bad place where the rich man resides may be a little more than simply a transitional home: > > \*And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. \* It was part and parcel of Jewish beliefs about the divisons of Sheol that no one could breech them. Sheol was still only temporary, though. Any literary work which started as oral tradition in ancient languages, translated centuries later into Greek, then into other languages, and finally into different styles within languages is bound to have some room for different interpretation. [/QUOTE] There is no documentation for a Jewish belief in eternal hell before the Christian era. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/26 "2005-08-24T04:45:31Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no documentation for a Jewish belief in eternal hell before the Christian era. Well, not unless you choose to ignore the Book of Enoch, written up to 250 years prior to the birth of Jesus (although much of it is later): Chapter 10: > [@](#): > > And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all 15 generations. While those who come later will be bound to Semjaza for 15 generations, Semjaza and his buddies are, after waiting for 70 generations for judgment, to “be confined forever” in an “abyss of fire.” Enoch was never canonical among the Jewish people. However, a claim that it does not represent “a Jewish belief” (by some unidentified number of Jews) is not tenable. It was sufficiently well known among Jews and Hellenized Jews to be quoted by the authors of the Letter of Jude and the Letter of Barnabas. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/27 "2005-08-24T05:35:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, not unless you choose to ignore the Book of Enoch, written up to 250 years prior to the birth of Jesus (although much of it is later): > > Chapter 10:While those who come later will be bound to Semjaza for 15 generations, Semjaza and his buddies are, after waiting for 70 generations for judgment, to “be confined forever” in an “abyss of fire.” > > Enoch was never canonical among the Jewish people. However, a claim that it does not represent “a Jewish belief” (by some unidentified number of Jews) is not tenable. It was sufficiently well known among Jews and Hellenized Jews to be quoted by the authors of the Letter of Jude and the Letter of Barnabas. Verses 17, 18 and 19 seem to imply that those souls will eventually be destroyed. > [@](#): > > 17Immediately after this shall he, together with them, burn and perish; they shall be bound until the consummation of many generations. > > 18Destroy all the souls addicted to dalliance, and the offspring of the Watchers, for they have tyrannized over mankind. > 19Let every oppressor perish from the face of the earth No matter, I will concede the point that I was wrong to say that there is NO evidence of a pre-Christian Jewish belief at the time but I will maintain that it’s not in the Hebrew Bible and not in the NT. Enoch is a compilation of fringe writings - some of them dating into the Christian era- which contain any number of ideas (“levels of Heaven” and so forth) which do not appear in the TNK and may or may not represent mainstream Jewish ideas at any given time. The OP’s question as to whether Christian Hell is described in the _Bible_ is still a no- or at least, every example which is commonly translated or interpreted as such can be easily explained within a context of mainstream Jewish afterlife and eschatological beliefs which did not necessarily include a belief in eternal torment. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/28 "2005-08-24T06:49:47Z")
Moved to GD. - **xash** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/29 "2005-08-24T13:24:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The OT has some 15 references to Heaven, occording to my source, so, I am afraid you’re wrong, **El Zagna**. The 1st is in Genesis! I refer you also to Deut 26:15, 1Kings 8:30, 1 Chon 16:31, 2 Chron 6:33 and 39, and so forth. The passages you cite all refer to heaven basically as the place where God lives. That was the distinction I was trying to make, that in the OT heaven is only where God lives, not necessarily someplace any of the rest of us can aspire to. The references to hell are actually pretty subtle and not necessarily referring to hell per se. The story mentioned in Numbers, for example, sounds more like an earthquake than some kind of hell: > [@](#): > > 16:31 When he had finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open, 16:32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, along with their houses, and all Korah’s men, and all their goods. 16:33 They and all that they had went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed over them. So they perished from the midst of the community. Either way, considering the importance given to heaven and hell in contemporary religions, you would think the Bible would have spent a little more time on it. Maybe if you have to spend your days on earth obsessing on which goat to sacrifice (gotta have both testicles, ya’ know) an eternity of misery and torture isn’t that big a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/30 "2005-08-24T13:54:06Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Christian concept of Hell as a place of eternal, conscious torment, is not in the Bible It isn’t? What about the cited passage from Luke? You can debate whether the described torment is eternal, but it certainly sounds conscious if the rich man is begging for water. Or are you defining “Bible” in such a way as to exclude the gospel according to Luke. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/31 "2005-08-24T14:03:13Z")
And here’s the passage from the Gospel of **Mark** to which **dre2xl** made reference: > [@](#): > > 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. > > 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: **it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:** > > 44 **Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.** > > 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: > > 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. > > 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: > > 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:42-48. And I believe Mark is regarded as the earliest known Gospel (and therefore, the most unfiltered). ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/32 "2005-08-24T14:15:20Z")
I can’t help but wonder why the founders of a religion that is so focused on the afterlife wouldn’t attempt to explain the consequences in a more direct manner. A parable written down by someone who never met Christ, and AFAIK does not appear in any other gospel or writings by those who could have heard the parable being told does not seem like strong evidence for the concept of eternal fire and demon whippings. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/33 "2005-08-24T14:20:07Z")
> [@FordPrefect](#): > > A parable written down by someone who never met Christ, and AFAIK does not appear in any other gospel or writings by those who could have heard the parable being told does not seem like strong evidence for the concept of eternal fire and demon whippings. Yes, but as noted the same concept (if not the same parable) shows up in both Mark and Luke. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/34 "2005-08-24T14:24:39Z")
Yeah, but the Mark passage does not say that the soul will burn forever, just that the fire is not quenched. Which could mean that the worm eats the souls as they burn and the fire won’t go out no matter how many souls are tossed in. It does not imply, like Luke does, that the punishment goes on for a long time or that the soul is even aware of the burning. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/35 "2005-08-24T14:28:48Z")
And of course the book of **Revelation** makes reference to the “lake of fire”: > [@](#): > > And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15. The torment isn’t necessarily eternal, though, in the conception of the writer of **Revelation** : > [@](#): > > But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: **which is the second death**. Revelation 21:8. Now, granted, the book of Revelation came along late in the game, but the OP’s question was whether the concept of Hell appears in the Bible. Revelation being part of the Bible, you’d have to include its references. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/36 "2005-08-24T14:40:32Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > It isn’t? What about the cited passage from Luke? You can debate whether the described torment is eternal, but it certainly sounds conscious if the rich man is begging for water. > > Or are you defining “Bible” in such a way as to exclude the gospel according to Luke. I’m defining hell as eternal. Sheol wasn’t eternal. > [@](#): > > And here’s the passage from the Gospel of Mark to which dre2xl made reference: The word tranlsated as Hell is Gehenna in Greek. It is the fire that’s eternal, not the torment. “The worm never dies” is a reference to the rotting carcasses in Gehenna which “eternally” crawled with worms. Gehenna is a place for annihilation and eternal _death_, not torment. > [@](#): > > Yes, but as noted the same concept (if not the same parable) shows up in both Mark and Luke It’s two different concepts. the parable in Luke is about Sheol, in which temporary punishment is possible. The passage in Mark is about Gehenna, which comes _after_ the dead are resurrected from Sheol and which is a site of annihilation, not torment. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/37 "2005-08-24T14:40:43Z")
Add the Gospel of **Matthew** to the list: > [@](#): > > 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,\*\* Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels\*\*: > > 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: > > 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. > > 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? > > 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. > > 46 **And these shall go away into everlasting punishment** : but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/38 "2005-08-24T14:43:12Z")
The issue with any of the passages referring to everlasting fires (generally translating _gehenna_), is that while the fires last forever, the passages never actually say that the person will “survive” in those fires forever. The point being that the more traditional Jewish belief is that those who have done evil will, themselves, be destroyed in the fires that never will die. There are passages that talk about everlasting punishment, but they are generally separate from the passages that use the image of fire or _gehenna_ and they also generally use some variant of the problematic Greek word _aion_ (_’_[symbol]aiwn[/symbol]), that does not have the _specific_ meaning that “eternal,” “everlasting,” or “forever” have in English. It can mean “long ages” or “an indefinite long period of time” or even just “an age.” My point in my exchange with **DtC** was that I do not believe that it is a cut-and-dried fact that Christianity _introduced_ the notion of everlasting punishment in the second century. It may have done so, but there are glimpses and foreshadowings in the Apocrypha (such as Enoch), and there are references in other New Testament passages, that the concept of everlasting punishment was sufficiently familiar to the audience, indicating that while it was not a mainstream belief, it was a belief that people would have recognized. As an example, Matthew 25:46 > [@](#): > > And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. The exact same word is used to identify the future of those who are evil and those who are righteous, _'_[symbol]aiwnion[/symbol], yet I never encounter anyone arguing that those who are saved will eventually die. However, to repeat the point, above, the references to _everlasting fire_ that we find do not actually say that those condemed will burn forever, only that the fires, themselves, will never be extinguished. And, again, I am not asserting that the belief clearly was present. I only contend that the issue is not one of clear fact. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/39 "2005-08-24T14:45:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s two different concepts. the parable in Luke is about Sheol, in which temporary punishment is possible. The passage in Mark is about Gehenna, which comes _after_ the dead are resurrected from Sheol and which is a site of annihilation, not torment. Do you have a citation for that? Because the two passages appear to be referring to the same concept of fiery punishment after death. Call the concept whatever you will. (A rose by any other name and all that.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/40 "2005-08-24T14:54:54Z")
Matt 25:41, 46 and Revelation 14: 10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. are the strongest NT support for eternal hell. The problem -alas- the word in the Matthew passage translated as “everlasting” & “eternal” is “aionian”, which literally means “age-enduring”, but does not essentially mean “eternal”. The strongest argument, tho not irrefutable, that is does mean “eternal” is that “aionian” is also used in the NT to describe the Afterlife of the saved. And in Revelation 14. the term “forever and ever” is literally “for the aions of the aions”, “ages and ages”- also not necessarily forever & even if it did mean that- it says the SMOKE of their anguish will rise forever & ever, not that they will suffer forever & ever. Plus, it’s a reference to a prophecy against Edom in Isaiah 34: 9. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. The fires of Edom’s destruction are no longer burning but the destruction of Edom was quite thorough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320.md?page=3)