# Is there Biblical support for the concept of Hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320 "2005-08-23T20:24:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/41 "2005-08-24T15:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you have a citation for that? This goes back to **DtC** ’s earlier point that Luke used the word Hades. Hades was the word used throughout the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew bible), to translate the Jewish word _sheol_. In their earliest incarnations, both words described a remarkably similar experience (probably reflecting a general concept prevalent throughout the eastern Mediterranean), in which the dead shuffled around in a dreary state of not-quite-living, with neither joy nor true suffering, deprived of all the feelings of life other than existence (and a general depression). In the centuries just prior to the birth of Jesus, Jewish theology began to explore the possibility of a more “active” afterlife, with actual reward for good behavior and suffering for bad behavior. In this period, some thought was given to the types of punishment and reward meted out. (In a way that was quite analogous to Dante’s later _Divine Commedy_ with his circles of hell, purgatory, and heaven.) The New Testament passages that describe the torments of fire all use the word _gehenna_, taken from the imagery that **DtC** described, above, with the single exception of Luke’s parable. It would seem that **DtC** would read that as Luke’s way of referring to _sheol_, against which I would point out that Luke, knowing the Tanakh only from the Septuagint, may not have been familiar with all the nuances of the Hebrew terminology and used a word that would be familiar to his Greek-speaking audience without considering the ways that 21st century scholars would parse it. However, **DtC** is not simply making up his claim and does have linguistic support for it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/42 "2005-08-24T15:10:53Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Add the Gospel of **Matthew** to the list: > Matthew 25:41-46 I see that **tom** has addressed the translation of _aionion_ (which is an adjectival form of _aion_, meaning “age.” calling somethin _aionion_ is essentially the equivalent of calling it an “age-y” amount of time. It doesn’t really translate precisely into English but it makes sense in Greek. Moreover, the word translated as “punishment” (_kolasin_) does not mean “torture” or “torment.” The Greek word actually means “cutting back” or “pruning” as in pruning a tree. Figuratively, it meant “correction,” “chastisement,” or “punishment” in the sense of a legal penalty or sentence. In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Jesus is saying that the bad people will go to an “age-long pruning” or perhaps “age-long penalty.” As with all the other Gehenna references, the penalty is annihilation, not torture. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/43 "2005-08-24T15:16:28Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Do you have a citation for that? Because the two passages appear to be referring to the same concept of fiery punishment after death. Call the concept whatever you will. (A rose by any other name and all that.) The citation is in the translations. Gehenna meant one thing, and _Sheol_/Hades another. I say that Luke’s parable refers to _Sheol_ not only because Hades was the satndard Greek translation of that word but because the parable also references the “Bosom of Abraham” which was a specific region of _Sheol_, not Gehenna. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/44 "2005-08-24T15:18:48Z")
Thanks, **tom**. But my point is that, whatever word the authors used to describe the concept, they all appear to be referring to the same concept – an afterlife featuring fiery punishment for wrongdoing. It seems a stretch to me to argue (as **DtC** is doing) that because they used different words they must mean entirely different things. To my way of thinking, fiery punishment after death is fiery punishment after death, whatever you choose to call it. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > [Referring to the passage from Matthew 25] > > Moreover, the word translated as “punishment” (kolasin) does not mean “torture” or “torment.” Except that the passage from Matthew 25 specifically references the unrighteous being tossed into a fire: > [@](#): > > 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/45 "2005-08-24T15:21:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > 1. _Gehenna_, or the Valley of Hinnon, a real valley outside of Jerusalem which was used as a garbage dump and a disposal site for the carcasses of animals along with (sometimes) the bodies of criminals. What are the property prices there these days? As towns get built up I’ve seen some pretty nasty locales turned into pricey subdivisions and if nobody has developed Gehenna yet this could be a gound-floor opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/46 "2005-08-24T15:21:37Z")
The fire was for annihlation, not torment. Sheol and Gehenna are two different phases of the afterlife. They are not the same thing. Look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/47 "2005-08-24T15:26:30Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > What are the property prices there these days? As towns get built up I’ve seen some pretty nasty locales turned into pricey subdivisions and if nobody has developed Gehenna yet this could be a ground-floor opportunity. ☹ Sorry, it seems to have already been developed. [Hell ain’t such a bad place to be](http://lotb.discoverthebook.org/Israel/images/View%20of%20Hinnom%20Valley%20and%20west%20wall%20of%20Old%20City%2C%2057-14tb.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/48 "2005-08-24T15:28:56Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > What are the property prices there these days? As towns get built up I’ve seen some pretty nasty locales turned into pricey subdivisions and if nobody has developed Gehenna yet this could be a gound-floor opportunity. There’s a garden there now. It looks pretty nice. [Photos of Hell](http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellPhotos/index.htm). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/49 "2005-08-24T15:40:55Z")
I dunno. That plaza looks like it could get pretty hot on a sunny July afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/50 "2005-08-24T16:03:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Sheol and Gehenna are two different phases of the afterlife. They are not the same thing. Look it up. Look it up _where_? I see nothing in any _Biblical_ passage to support the idea of “different phases” of the afterlife. (And remember, we are discussing the concept of Hell as it appears _in the Bible_.) All I see is the good getting rewarded and the bad receiving a fiery punishment (which may or may not be eternal, depending upon interpretation). The same concept seems to appear in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Revelation (see the passages cited above). I suspect the difference between “Sheol” and “Gehenna” and “Hades” _as used by New Testament authors_ (a critical caveat) is about the same as the difference between “Satan” and “The Devil” and “Lucifer” as used by modern authors (_i.e._ not much). I suspect (judging from the context in which the words appear) that “Sheol” and “Gehenna” and “Hades” _as used by New Testament authors_ were all just roughly interchangeable references to the same basic concept of fiery punishment after death. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/51 "2005-08-24T16:06:12Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Look it up _where_? I see nothing in any _Biblical_ passage to support the idea of “different phases” of the afterlife. (And remember, we are discussing the concept of Hell as it appears _in the Bible_.) > > All I see is the good getting rewarded and the bad receiving a fiery punishment (which may or may not be eternal, depending upon interpretation). After actually reading this thread over, rather than just stopping by to make a joke, I have to agree with **spoke-** about this. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/52 "2005-08-24T17:38:43Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And of course the book of **Revelation** makes reference to the “lake of fire”: > Revelation 20:15. > The torment isn’t necessarily eternal, though, in the conception of the writer of **Revelation** : > Revelation 21:8. > Now, granted, the book of Revelation came along late in the game, but the OP’s question was whether the concept of Hell appears in the Bible. Revelation being part of the Bible, you’d have to include its references. I would agree with you on Revelations being biblical support for the concept of hell. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/53 "2005-08-24T18:10:49Z")
On re-reading the OP, I would say that we may have gotten a bit sidetracked. The issues of disagreement tend to focus on the aspect of _eternal_ punishment and whether that particular concept arose before Christianity, along with Christianity, or arose within Christianity after the period that the New Testament was written. However, if we set aside the notion of eternal punishment (which was only one aspect sought by the OP), then I think that there is clear evidence that the idea of a flaming punishment is pretty well attested in the New Testament (with some metaphorical allusions to a similar fate from one or two passages in the Old Testament). (Even if we go with the idea that the fires will consume and destroy the evil person, it is pretty clearly more akin to punishment than reward.) Once we throw “eternal” back into the mix, the question becomes much less clear. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/54 "2005-08-24T18:14:07Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Look it up _where_? I see nothing in any _Biblical_ passage to support the idea of “different phases” of the afterlife. (And remember, we are discussing the concept of Hell as it appears _in the Bible_.) > > All I see is the good getting rewarded and the bad receiving a fiery punishment (which may or may not be eternal, depending upon interpretation). The same concept seems to appear in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Revelation (see the passages cited above). I suspect the difference between “Sheol” and “Gehenna” and “Hades” _as used by New Testament authors_ (a critical caveat) is about the same as the difference between “Satan” and “The Devil” and “Lucifer” as used by modern authors (_i.e._ not much). > > I suspect (judging from the context in which the words appear) that “Sheol” and “Gehenna” and “Hades” _as used by New Testament authors_ were all just roughly interchangeable references to the same basic concept of fiery punishment after death. What I meant was that you should look up the individual definition of each word. The “fiery” aspects which you’re so fixated on have explanations in their 1st century Jewish context which do not have to relate to the Christian idea of eternal Hell. If you want to assert that the NT authors used those terms to mean anything different from what they meant in their mainstream historical and cultural context, you need to explain why. " _Ge-hinnom_ means “Valley of Hinnom” in Hebrew/Aramaic. Matthew transliterates the word to Greek as [symbol]geena[/symbol]. When Matthew says “Valley of Hinnom,” and he refers to it in exactly the same way as it was referred to in Jewish eschatology (i.e. as a site of annihilation for the unrighteous), why should you assume that it meant anything else? Gehenna was a physical place name for a specific valley in Jerusalem, it was not otherwordly or a name for anything in an afterlife. Under the Greek influence of the Hellenistic period, there came to be a belief that _Sheol_ was divided into good parts and bad parts which incorporated somen ideas about temporary punishments and rewards. The good part was called the “Bosom of Abraham,” and that’s where Jesus says that Lazarus went in the Luke’s parable. The fact that Luke referred to a specific part of _Sheol_ ( which was routinely translated into Greek as “Hades”), would seem to confirm that he was talking about _Sheol_, would it not? I think you’re getting hung up on some very superficial commonalities (Fire! Fire!) and refusing to look any deeper into linguistic or historical analysis because it doesn’t conform to what you want to believe. I have no dog in this fight. I don’t care if Jesus believed in Hell or not. It’s no skin of my nose either way. I’m just trying to explain what those passages say in Greek and what those places meant in a 1st century Palestinan Jewish context. You haven’t provided a reasn why they should be read any other way. Tell me why Matthew’s use of Gehenna does not refer to the Valley of Hinnon and why when he says that sinners will be cast into flames, we should infer that he means anything different from the common Jewish belief at the time that sinners would be annihilated in the Valley of Hinnom? If Luke refers to good parts and bad parts of _Sheol_ and calls the good part, the “Bosom of Abraham,” why should we read that as _not_ referring to the common Jewish belief that _Sheol_ divided in exactly that same way? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/55 "2005-08-24T18:16:20Z")
Just to clarify once again…it’s only the _eternal_ part that I’m taking exception to, not the punishment part. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/56 "2005-08-24T19:34:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Just to clarify once again…it’s only the _eternal_ part that I’m taking exception to, not the punishment part. How do you reconcile Matthew 25:46? \*Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. \* The same Greek word is used for both everlasting and eternal. So those who are righteous are not promised an eternal life? Just a really long life? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/57 "2005-08-24T20:13:17Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If you want to assert that the NT authors used those terms to mean anything different from what they meant in their mainstream historical and cultural context, you need to explain why. " Ge-hinnom means “Valley of Hinnom” in Hebrew/Aramaic. Matthew transliterates the word to Greek as geena. When Matthew says “Valley of Hinnom,” and he refers to it in exactly the same way as it was referred to in Jewish eschatology (i.e. as a site of annihilation for the unrighteous), why should you assume that it meant anything else? Gehenna was a physical place name for a specific valley in Jerusalem, it was not otherwordly or a name for anything in an afterlife. **4 Ezra/2 Esdras** _(Author, a Palestinian Jew writing at about the same time as Matthew)_ Chapter 7: > [@](#): > > [31] And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish. > [32] And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. > [33] And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn; > [34] but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong. > [35] And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep. > [36] Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and _the furnace of hell [**gehenna**] shall be disclosed, and opposite it the paradise of delight_. **Assumption of Moses** _(Author Palestinian Jew writing at about the time that Jesus was born.)_ > [@](#): > > For the Most High will arise, the Eternal God alone, > And He will appear to punish the Gentiles, > And He will destroy all their idols. > Then you, O Israel, shall be happy, > And you shall mount upon the necks and wings of the eagle, > And they shall be ended. > And God will exalt you, > And He will cause you to approach to the heaven of the stars, > In the place of their habitation. > And you will look from on high and see your enemies in **Gehenna** > And you shall recognize them and rejoice, > And you shall give thanks and confess thy Creator. The 1909 Jewish Encyclopedia article on [Gehenna](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G) notes > [@](#): > > The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the “valley of the son of Hinnom,” to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and “Gehenna” therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for “hell.” and while many of the citations of the article are clearly to the period after Christian beliefs may have had an influence on Jewish thought, several of the references are to texts that were concurrent with the creation of the Christian scriptures or which preceded them. With the literary allusions that appear in Jeremiah, (and by association, Isaiah) over 500 years earlier, in conjunction with the references in Enoch and the contemporary (if non-scriptural) references in Jewish literature, there is no reason to suppose that the word carried only its literal meaning of the Valley of Hinnon at that time that Luke, Matthew, and Mark used it. (In fact, given Luke’s background and audience, a literal meaning is the least likely one to assign it.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/58 "2005-08-24T20:13:43Z")
I don’t have a dog in this fight either, except from an academic perspective. Seems to me we’re in basic agreement that the New Testament does reference a fiery punishment for sinners in the afterlife. May or may not be eternal, depending on your interpretation. Getting back to the OP, we might also consider **where** the punishment will take place. Most folks today envision Hell as being some underworld cavern. To my knowledge, the New Testament doesn’t support that. The location is either unspecified, or in the “Valley of Hinnom” as noted by **DtC**. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/59 "2005-08-24T20:35:26Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > How do you reconcile Matthew 25:46? > > \*Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. \* > > The same Greek word is used for both everlasting and eternal. So those who are righteous are not promised an eternal life? Just a really long life? What if punishment = death? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320/60 "2005-08-24T21:29:18Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > How do you reconcile Matthew 25:46? > > \*Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. \* > > The same Greek word is used for both everlasting and eternal. So those who are righteous are not promised an eternal life? Just a really long life? I already answered this. The word translated as “punishment” does not mean tormented. Literally, _aionon kolasin_ means “age-lasting pruning.” The “punishment” was death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-biblical-support-for-the-concept-of-hell/318320.md?page=4)