# Is there doctrine regarding food prohibition in Judaism - God's reasoning. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 9, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283 "2019-04-09T15:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/61 "2019-04-11T16:44:48Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > [snip] Modern culture as well has lots of ritualistic things that are common among various communities. I’m Appalachian, so we eat ramps in the springtime and I’ll be honest that I resent that foodies from urban areas are infringing upon this part of our culture. Obviously, ramp-eating in April doesn’t reach the level of religious dictate, but it’s a cultural dietary peculiarity that serves to distinguish our culture. It’s easy to see how such things can easily rise to the level of religious dictate when put in the right set of political and cultural circumstances. Ramps are common to New England as well, and locals have been eating them for centuries (probably millennia). I will admit, though, that we don’t have festivals for them as far as I am aware. So that’s maybe an Appalachian peculiarity. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/62 "2019-04-11T17:03:16Z")
I cashier in a store owned by Orthodox Jewish people in an area with a large Jewish population. This is our biggest time of year: People buying paper and plastic dinnerware and all new kitchenware for the Passover season. We ring up orders of $300 - $400 every day, and the record (held by me!) is $997 of tableware, kitchenware and kosher for Passover food. It’s mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/63 "2019-04-11T17:03:44Z")
> [@Motorgirl](#): > > Ramps are common to New England as well, and locals have been eating them for centuries (probably millennia). I will admit, though, that we don’t have festivals for them as far as I am aware. So that’s maybe an Appalachian peculiarity. 😃 What is a ramp? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/64 "2019-04-11T17:09:06Z")
It’s certainly not the Official Jewish Explanation of the Reasoning Behind the Law, but I’ve long been partial to the work of “Cultural Materialist” Anthropologist Marvin Harris, who has set down his CM explanations for dietary laws around the world, including the Jewish ones, in his books _Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches_, _The Sacred Cow and the Abominable Pig_ (AKA _Good to Eat_), _Our Kind_, _Cultural Materialism_, and others. In his explanations, there is some practical reason behind the prohibitions, possibly an “economic” one. Later philosophizing about long-established rules then leads to rationalization centered around some other explanation. Harris’ explanation about not eating pig, for instance (which isn’t strictly a Jewish taboo, but is also observed by Muslims and was in the past observed by the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians) is that, although pigs quickly put on weight and can be rapidly raised and slaughtered, they also compete with people for food. You can feed cows, goats, and sheep on grass and other plants that people can’t digest, but pigs don’t eat grass – they eat plant food that people can eat. In addition, pigs require the proper environment and keeping. In a subsistence economy, with everyone just above starvation, pigs are a luxury. Nevertheless, they’re an _attractive_ luxury. If pig meat weren’t seductive, but was instead disgusting, there’d be no need for a rule prohibiting it – people wouldn’t be tempted. The existence of the law implies that people would be tempted. In Polynesia, where there are few large native animals, and where the wild pigs feed themselves and aren’t domesticated, prohibiting the eating of pig would have been insane. In fact, in some places there consumption of pig was practically a religious ceremony. Similarly, 19th century America was famous (or notorious) for widespread eating of pigs. But pigs could be fattened for market quickly on surplus corn that people didn’t need. In fact, feeding the corn to pigs, then walking them to market was the most efficient way to sell the nutrition in the corn. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/65 "2019-04-11T17:55:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What is a ramp? Basically wild onions. > **[Allium tricoccum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_tricoccum)** > > Allium tricoccum (commonly known as ramp, ramps, ramson, wild leek, wood leek, or wild garlic) is a bulbous perennial flowering plant in the amaryllis family Amaryllidaceae. It is a North American species of wild onion or garlic widespread across eastern Canada and the eastern United States. Many of the common English names for this plant are also used for other Allium species, particularly the similar Allium ursinum, which is native to Europe and Asia. An edible plant, Allium tricoccum Alliu... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/66 "2019-04-11T18:39:21Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Basically wild onions. > > [Allium tricoccum - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_tricoccum) “ramp” is the same as “rampion”, which, as I learned from Fractured Fairy Tales, is the same as _Rapunzel_. Maybe this is why they stuck her way up in a tall tower. ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/67 "2019-04-11T19:27:41Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Basically wild onions. > > [Allium tricoccum - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_tricoccum) They’re both oniony and garlicky in flavor and kind of tangy in a way that domesticated onion varieties don’t seem to be. They’re some of the first greens to appear in the spring and act as a beacon of hope that warm weather is on its way. They’re also wild foraged food. They need to be harvested in a specific way to avoid decimating a patch - they are _very_ slow to reproduce and spread, so you have to leave the root end of the bulb in place. Preferably harvesting only leaves, leaving the bulb + one leaf in place. For this and other reasons they are not possible to cultivate on a commercial scale. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/68 "2019-04-11T19:33:06Z")
Annie-XMas: > [@](#): > > I cashier in a store owned by Orthodox Jewish people in an area with a large Jewish population. This is our biggest time of year: People buying paper and plastic dinnerware and all new kitchenware for the Passover season. We ring up orders of $300 - $400 every day, and the record (held by me!) is $997 of tableware, kitchenware and kosher for Passover food. Amazing Savings? ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/69 "2019-04-11T20:16:30Z")
> [@Motorgirl](#): > > They’re both oniony and garlicky in flavor and kind of tangy in a way that domesticated onion varieties don’t seem to be. They’re some of the first greens to appear in the spring and act as a beacon of hope that warm weather is on its way. > > They’re also wild foraged food. They need to be harvested in a specific way to avoid decimating a patch - they are _very_ slow to reproduce and spread, so you have to leave the root end of the bulb in place. Preferably harvesting only leaves, leaving the bulb + one leaf in place. For this and other reasons they are not possible to cultivate on a commercial scale. Their newfound popularity with foodies is raising forage to unsustainable levels. When I was younger, they were literally everywhere. In the last decade, there are almost none in easily accessible places anymore. If you’re near a trail, you can forget it. You have to go farther and farther afield. When I was a kid, if you had to buy them, you’d pay a buck for a grocery bag full. Now they go for 20 a pound, absolutely ridiculous prices and that has more amateurs combing the woods and patches getting hit by multiple people, so an acre patch which can withstand maybe a 1/3 harvest is getting hit by five people each taking a third of what remains of the path, so they think it’s sustainable, but really they’re decimating it without realizing it. I keep waiting for hipsters to start liking kale again so we can have some recovery. ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/70 "2019-04-11T20:48:05Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Their newfound popularity with foodies is raising forage to unsustainable levels. When I was younger, they were literally everywhere. In the last decade, there are almost none in easily accessible places anymore. If you’re near a trail, you can forget it. You have to go farther and farther afield. When I was a kid, if you had to buy them, you’d pay a buck for a grocery bag full. Now they go for 20 a pound, absolutely ridiculous prices and that has more amateurs combing the woods and patches getting hit by multiple people, so an acre patch which can withstand maybe a 1/3 harvest is getting hit by five people each taking a third of what remains of the path, so they think it’s sustainable, but really they’re decimating it without realizing it. I keep waiting for hipsters to start liking kale again so we can have some recovery. It’s a horrible situation. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/71 "2019-04-12T13:20:01Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Annie-XMas: > > Amazing Savings? Yep. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/72 "2019-04-12T14:47:27Z")
I overheard a discussion at a Jewish school once, one lady said what they did for plates to simplify things was to use one set of plates, but put paper plates on them for each meal and discard the papers after. Since it was the main one for the city I assume students ran the gamut from strictly observant to reformed. One fellow I worked with had no problem with ordering vegetarian options (i.e. vegetarian wraps) from past food places, the closest you could get to ensuring kosher without being too strict; (After all, the Pita Place is not going to process cheese, beef, bacon, etc. with different utensils, but at least he is not actually intentionally eating inappropriate items) he also declined accepting a debt payment on Saturday, but had no problem coming in to help fix servers - something more essential that could not wait. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/73 "2019-04-12T16:33:27Z")
My sister’s family has meat and dairy _dishwashers_. When they accidentally cook meat in a dairy pot (or vice versa) they give it to us (the pot, not the meat) because we’re much less observant. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/74 "2019-04-12T17:21:48Z")
Apparently scrolls are kosher: Ezekiel 3:3 and Revelation 10:10 (Although probably particularly nutritious or tasty.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/75 "2019-04-12T17:42:10Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I overheard a discussion at a Jewish school once, one lady said what they did for plates to simplify things was to use one set of plates, but put paper plates on them for each meal and discard the papers after. Since it was the main one for the city I assume students ran the gamut from strictly observant to reformed. A rabbi mentioned that his family uses paper plates at Passover. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/76 "2019-04-12T18:46:47Z")
Earl Snake-Hips Tucker: > [@](#): > > Apparently scrolls are kosher: Ezekiel 3:3 and Revelation 10:10 The word “kosher” literally means “valid” or “fit for use”. While the most common application of the word is to food, it applies to anything that has certain requirements in Jewish law to be valid. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/77 "2019-04-12T20:10:22Z")
As an atheist, I tend to look to human reasoning for answers. I’d guess that in those times, a great way to get the people over whom you rule to not do something would be to say that God forbids it. Thus, one should look for reasons the rulers did not want their minions do eat this or that. In the case of four-legged beasts, restricting consumption of all but herding ruminants would have made sense. They can live on what we cannot and are easily manageable. Horses have a lot of that going for them, but they were far too valuable as a means of fast transportation. Likewise, camels were too valuable for pack train. By today’s standards, it would be like eating a fighter jet or 18-wheeler. Swine seem to have been singled out as particularly unclean. My own opinion is that they were characterized that way because they are delicious. If there is a kernel of truth in biblical history, the once nomadic Jews had an extended stay in Egypt. It seems likely that many would have developed a taste for swine flesh during their period of servitude. When that situation ended, their rulers may have wanted to dissuade their constituents from eating pigs because they are not compatible with a nomadic, herding lifestyle and because they compete with us for food. They also kill grasses with their rooting. To feed their taste for pork would have required a greater expenditure of time, effort, and resources than would have been spent on raising cows, sheep, and goats. Why no meat eaters or reptiles? Perhaps someone else can chime in on that. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/78 "2019-04-13T03:05:30Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > If you’ve ever seen free-roaming chickens going after bugs in the garden, you know they are great predators, but I believe chicken is a kosher meat. Bugs, nothing. I witnessed a hen chase and kill a mouse that made the mistake of scuttling across the barn door in front of her. I did not see her consume it because she immediately ran out with the corpse while her buddies were in hot pursuit, wanting a share. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/79 "2019-04-13T09:27:31Z")
Yeah, I laugh when those Purdue commercials come on the TV talking about raising chickens on a vegetarian diet. Chickens are NOT vegetarians! ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/80 "2019-04-13T11:39:52Z")
No, they’re definitely not. I joined a couple backyard chicken groups on FB and in late November, all the posts are one of two topics: - “ummm … can I give my chickens the turkey carcass?” and - “holy shit my chickens decimated that turkey carcass!!!1!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283.md?page=5)