# Is there doctrine regarding food prohibition in Judaism - God's reasoning. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 9, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283 "2019-04-09T15:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/81 "2019-04-13T14:49:16Z")
I’m not sure the dietary and other rules of kosher can be reduced to simple utilitarianism. The main point seems to be about being “clean” ritually and spiritually. As far back as the legend of Noah animals are categorized as clean and unclean, and blood seems to be particularly “magic” in its spiritual implications. For example the story in the New Testament about Jesus healing a woman who had an issuance of blood, he wasn’t just solving a gynecological problem. Menstruating women were forbidden to enter the temple, and so she’d been unable to offer proper observance to God for years. It might be enlightening to compare kosher rules on purity with an equally obsessive/compulsive tradition that’s completely non-Jewish; say, the rules Brahmans are supposed to follow. I have a half-baked hypothesis that the founding of Bronze Age civilizations was in its day a sort of proto-Brave New World, in which the practices of civilization were considered inhuman by the standards of nomadic tribespeoples, and that Judaism largely defined itself as a reaction against it; which would fit the legend that Abram was originally a refugee from Ur. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/82 "2019-04-14T15:43:59Z")
Lumpy: > [@](#): > > Menstruating women were forbidden to enter the temple, and so she’d been unable to offer proper observance to God for years. Just to be clear, it’s not just a women thing. Men who have recently experienced an emission of semen (or some abnormal flow from the same area) are also forbidden to enter the Temple. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/83 "2019-04-14T18:44:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I have a half-baked hypothesis that the founding of Bronze Age civilizations was in its day a sort of proto-Brave New World, in which the practices of civilization were considered inhuman by the standards of nomadic tribespeoples, and that Judaism largely defined itself as a reaction against it; which would fit the legend that Abram was originally a refugee from Ur. My half-baked hypothesis: Nomads are constantly on the move, searching for new pastures for their herds. Pigs have short legs, and minimal herd instinct. To raise swine, you build a fence around the pigs, and you bring food to them. To a nomad, that must have seemed utterly insane. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/84 "2019-04-15T16:06:09Z")
I remember a cartoon showing two cowboys on horseback herding pigs. One is saying, “Yeah I know, the bottom line is better and all that, but somehow it takes all the romance out of it.” ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/85 "2019-04-15T16:53:33Z")
There is a Jewish law that says if breaking a Jewish law will save a life, you must break it. You do not have any option in that regard. You break it. If you’re on a desert island and the only food is shellfish, you eat the (non-kosher) shellfish to stay alive. You have to eat them. I always thought that was a really cool law. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/86 "2019-04-16T12:36:37Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > There is a Jewish law that says if breaking a Jewish law will save a life, you must break it. You do not have any option in that regard. You break it. > > If you’re on a desert island and the only food is shellfish, you eat the (non-kosher) shellfish to stay alive. You have to eat them. > > I always thought that was a really cool law. Aren’t there exceptions to that if the act involves murder or incest (rape)? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/87 "2019-04-16T12:51:35Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m not sure the dietary and other rules of kosher can be reduced to simple utilitarianism. . Even Marvin Harris, whose “cultural materialism” theory of anthropology is about as utilitarian as you can get, acknowledged that it couldn’t explain _all_ aspects of people’s foodways. But it’s an excellent starting point, and I think does a much better job that trying to explain them on philosophical or magical grounds. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/88 "2019-04-16T13:47:00Z")
carnivorousplant: > [@](#): > > Aren’t there exceptions to that if the act involves murder or incest (rape)? Correct, those two plus idol-worship are exceptions to the “your life comes first” rule. And it’s not just incest, it’s all sexual prohibitions of a certain punishment (when done willingly) level - the actual Biblical example is adultery. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/89 "2019-04-16T15:55:43Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > carnivorousplant: > > Correct, those two plus idol-worship are exceptions to the “your life comes first” rule. And it’s not just incest, it’s all sexual prohibitions of a certain punishment (when done willingly) level - the actual Biblical example is adultery. A drunken patriarch’s daughters who wanted children? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/90 "2019-04-17T00:40:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > A drunken patriarch’s daughters who wanted children? That was well before the various rules in Leviticus were established. Heck, Abraham committed incest by later standards. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/91 "2019-04-17T01:50:32Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > That was well before the various rules in Leviticus were established. Heck, Abraham committed incest by later standards. Was it Abraham whose daughters…wanted children? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/92 "2019-04-17T02:12:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Was it Abraham whose daughters…wanted children? No, I was referring to the fact that Sarah was Abraham’s half-sister. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/93 "2019-04-17T08:31:55Z")
carnivorousplant: > [@](#): > > A drunken patriarch’s daughters who wanted children? No, the law of the betrothed maiden, per Deuteronomy 22:23-27. Lumpy: > [@](#): > > No, I was referring to the fact that Sarah was Abraham’s half-sister. That’s just an idiom which Abraham used in speaking to Abimelech; she was actually his niece, which is permitted even by Leviticus standards. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/94 "2019-04-17T13:08:10Z")
**cmkeller** : That was before the Law was given to Moses. I assume the Noahide Laws would be the prevailing moral/legal code, therefore. One of those laws forbids adultery or sexual immorality. Is there a definition of sexual immorality that would cover things like that? Thanks in advance for whatever you care to add. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/95 "2019-04-17T16:16:10Z")
Personal theory (for the theory collectors): The OT has a general habit of taking the things that the Jews do and saying that they do them because it’s God’s commandment, and saying that the things which they don’t do but that other groups do (Greeks / homosexuality, Egyptians / eating pork, etc.) are bad and hated by God. My assumption would be that this is all connected to the general idea that the Jews were special, powerful, destined for greatness, etc. because they had a covenant with God. Taking the reality of the cultural landscape as it was at that time and using that as a sort of “proof”, despite it just being the happenstance of time, helped to pull people in. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/96 "2019-04-17T16:46:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > My assumption would be that this is all connected to the general idea that the Jews were special, powerful, destined for greatness, etc. because they had a covenant with God. Taking the reality of the cultural landscape as it was at that time and using that as a sort of “proof”, despite it just being the happenstance of time, helped to pull people in. Chosen by G-d to receive the Torah and to try to make the world a better place. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/97 "2019-04-17T17:17:28Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Chosen by G-d to receive the Torah and to try to make the world a better place. No offense to Judaism in particular, but I’m pretty sure the Tanakh mostly describes things like conquest and taking slaves. You would have to provide a cite for a generic, “make the world a better place”, rule. Even Christianity doesn’t really have that (that I’m aware of) and that was far more the “love and peace” spin on the religion. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/98 "2019-04-17T17:24:18Z")
Here is a [Wikipedia article.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/99 "2019-04-17T18:58:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Was it Abraham whose daughters…wanted children? I assumed it meant Lot. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283/100 "2019-04-17T19:30:22Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I assumed it meant Lot. Yes, it was Lot. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-doctrine-regarding-food-prohibition-in-judaism-gods-reasoning/832283.md?page=6)