# Is there "Evidence" of God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044 "2005-02-26T20:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/141 "2005-03-08T12:06:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > He doesn’t even prove it to believers. There is nothing to prove. Existence is a trivial claim, and equally tenuous for all entities. I know all these words, but I’m not sure I fully get your point. Can you expound on that “there is nothing to prove” thing? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/142 "2005-03-08T12:51:31Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Uzi](#): > > The only reason you know about a ‘God’ in the first place is because of all those superstitions and misconceptions that other people’s religion is based upon. But, how do you differentiate a misconception from a truth? A superstition from a belief? Why is your belief not a superstition? Your truth not a misconception? Great Questions; For me the answer seek the truth diligently. We make our choices based or what we perceive to be the truth. These choices have have an effect on our lives and the lives of those around us. We must make these choices even when we don’t know for sure. For me it’s important to discern the difference between a foundational belief, and a theory in progress. I dont think its blasphemy to perceive God as a feild of conscious energy that we can connect to. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to talk to this energy in a personnel way such as prayer and meditation. > [@](#): > > 1. Because he wants to weed out all the credophiles. Would you want to spend eternity with a bunch of people who base their lives around fairy tales? Well neither does God. When we look at the history of science we can get back to a place where the things they believed seem ridiculous to us today. There are still areas of science that are in their infancy. The same is true for the quest for truth in the spiritual arena. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/143 "2005-03-08T13:03:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But doesn’t that presume that He wants your belief no matter what it takes? Maybe he doesn’t want it unless it’s voluntary. I mean, I could write a computer program that believes in me because it has to, but it is an infinitely pale shadow of when my wife, of her own free will says, “I believe in you.” Then explain to my why this particular being needs me, or anyone else, to believe in him? What is the benefit to him and to us? If he is willing to sentence me to eternal hellfire because he choses not to reveal himself to me in a manner that he knows I require for that belief, what kind of creature would he be? And if he is willing to provide some evidence\* then why not all evidence? If you go to church you have chosen one particular church based upon some preference of your own. You are basing your preference upon something that can only be derived from a thought process. You are evaluating something in your mind that tells you whatever it is you believe is at least true to you, if no one else. What do you base that upon? If you base it upon nothing more than this is what you think and feel then using that argument you might as well pray to the IPU. If you are basing it upon some ‘evidence’ then the rest of us who don’t buy that evidence are left out in the cold because of the way we are created. \*that there has to be evidence, whether based upon reality or not, is self evident otherwise we would not be having this discussion. That ‘evidence’ is apparently enough to convice some people and not others. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/144 "2005-03-08T13:19:57Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > Very good point, **Liberal**. > I’ve seen many people posit that God should know what it would take for skeptics to believe in Him…and we’ve brought up this point on several occasions, I think. If God proved to everyone that He existed, then nobody would have to “believe” in Him, we would know He was real - just like George Bush, Brad Pitt, and Barbra Streisand. It would just be a true fact. > > Many theists suggest that God doesn’t prove to everyone, including skeptics, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He exists, because He wants us to believe by faith, not by having irrefutable proof. I know it’s “convenient” (as the non-believer will say), but, as we said before, if it were any other way, there wouldn’t be any non-believers. I find this area very interesting. One idea. God doesn’t want us to be groveling obedient servents. {although that may be a nessecary part of the growth process} He wants partners. We have intelligence, consciousness and free will so that we can use them and choose. Its a nessecary part of the process of growing into our full potential. When my kids were little they certainly believed I existed. When I told them the stove was hot they didn’t nessecarliy believe or understand until they touched it.When I told them hitting wasn’t nice they didn’t believe or understand until they got hit. I wanted them to grow up to be independent, thinking, responsible, and happy adults. My equals. I didn’t want them to remain my dependent helpless children. Phil 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, Do you think this relates to why God doesn’t just prove his existance? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/145 "2005-03-08T13:22:49Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > 1. (“but… but… but… mummy and poppy TOLD me there was an IPU and they wouldn’t lie, now would they?”) > > 2. (or, “billions of people have believed in an IPU for millenia…billions of people couldn’t be wrong, now could they?”) > > Answer #1. Not so much a lie as a shared delusion, junior. > > Answer #2. Yes, yes they could be, and it looks as though they are. But if you really, REALLY believe hard enough maybe you’ll go to the Great Unicorn pasture in the sky. You heretic! Everyone knows that when you die, you go to The Happy Hunting-Ground of The IPU! [http://www.geocities.com/ipuprophecy/ipu.html](http://www.geocities.com/ipuprophecy/ipu.html) ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/146 "2005-03-08T13:29:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I find this area very interesting. One idea. God doesn’t want us to be groveling obedient servents. {although that may be a nessecary part of the growth process} He wants partners. We have intelligence, consciousness and free will so that we can use them and choose. Its a nessecary part of the process of growing into our full potential. It seems like the god portrayed in genesis wants unquestioning servants who will see him as a fact of life and will care for the garden without question. I am not saying this is what it says. I am just saying that is what it looks like. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/147 "2005-03-08T13:50:35Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Uzi](#): > > Then explain to my why this particular being needs me, or anyone else, to believe in him? What is the benefit to him and to us? If he is willing to sentence me to eternal hellfire because he choses not to reveal himself to me in a manner that he knows I require for that belief, what kind of creature would he be God doesn’t need you to believe in him anymore than the sun needs you to believe in it. Simple belief in something doesn’t produce benefits. That belief has to translate into action. Belief that my truck can get me to work doesn’t automatically get me to work. “in a manner that he knows I require for that belief” Wow!! Sometimes my kids required a cookie before they believed it was bed time. I would consider myself a poor parent if I gave in to everything they required in that sense. > [@](#): > > You are evaluating something in your mind that tells you whatever it is you believe is at least true to you, if no one else. What do you base that upon? If you base it upon nothing more than this is what you think and feel then using that argument you might as well pray to the IPU. Based on what we think and feel is exactly how EVERYONE makes their choices. What we think and feel translates into what we believe to be true. Some things we think and feel are more obvious than others. I think there is a door. I felt it when I ran into it. Others are more subtle but the consequences of our choices are just as real. I am not required to seek approval or permission to make a choice. I am required to deal with the consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/148 "2005-03-08T13:53:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But doesn’t that presume that He wants your belief no matter what it takes? Maybe he doesn’t want it unless it’s voluntary. Are you claiming that belief is voluntary? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/149 "2005-03-08T14:01:13Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > It seems like the god portrayed in genesis wants unquestioning servants who will see him as a fact of life and will care for the garden without question. I am not saying this is what it says. I am just saying that is what it looks like. Is does look that way in the OT. That was one cultures perception of God. Its several thousand years later and some people still look at God that way.I think there has been progress though. A lot of people don’t see it that way. In the New Testament it says “try the spirits to see if they are of God” Thats encourageing. We’re invited to exercise our judgement. We’re also told we can’t escape the consequences of our judgement calls. If I decide Jack Daniels is God then I have to deal with what comes from that decision. {I tried it. His spirits are good…but not God} ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/150 "2005-03-08T14:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] > [@](#): > > God doesn’t need you to believe in him anymore than the sun needs you to believe in it. Why does he require any belief? I don’t require that you believe in me, but if I want you to hand me a donut then it would be helpful if you did. So, if I want a donut then I’d better make my presence known. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/151 "2005-03-08T19:57:42Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Are you claiming that belief is voluntary? > Daniel Yes, of course. No one believes anything against his will; however, that is not to say that a man chooses what to believe. There are two aspects to freewill: volition and liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/152 "2005-03-08T20:17:07Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Then explain to my why this particular being needs me, or anyone else, to believe in him? Well, you didn’t answer my question, but I don’t mind answering yours. I’d say that it isn’t a matter of need. Suppose goodness is an aesthetic, and that He values it above all others. Suppose further that love is the conduit by which goodness is shared among free moral agents. Finally, suppose that He IS love. Don’t we deduce that He loves for the sake of love? > [@](#): > > What is the benefit to him and to us? Suppose that the value of goodness is that it edifies. Is it not of benefit to Him and to us to be edified? > [@](#): > > If he is willing to sentence me to eternal hellfire because he choses not to reveal himself to me in a manner that he knows I require for that belief, what kind of creature would he be? One you made up, I guess. “The Father judges no one, but has given all authority to the Son… and I pass judgment on no one.” — Jesus > [@](#): > > And if he is willing to provide some evidence\* then why not all evidence? Evidence of what exactly? > [@](#): > > If you go to church you have chosen one particular church based upon some preference of your own. I don’t go to church. My political philosophy too often conflicts with that of most politicians. > [@](#): > > You are basing your preference upon something that can only be derived from a thought process. You are evaluating something in your mind that tells you whatever it is you believe is at least true to you, if no one else. What do you base that upon? It’s based on quite many things, honestly. My experience. Logic. The longings of my heart. His beauty. My freedom of volition. The strengths of essentialism. The weaknesses of existentialism. The absurdities of materialism. Testimonial evidence. Empirical evidence. The understanding of His Word. The sensibleness of His plan. The non-reality of the universe. The nature of necessity. The triviality of existence. All that sort of thing. > [@](#): > > If you base it upon nothing more than this is what you think and feel then using that argument you might as well pray to the IPU. If you are basing it upon some ‘evidence’ then the rest of us who don’t buy that evidence are left out in the cold because of the way we are created. Well, you never know what’s around the corner. On any given day of my life up until a point, I could be writing your posts — ridiculing the faithful, making demands of them that I do not make of myself, presuming that I am smarter than they, insulting them with ad hominem attacks on their character and psychological stability. But suddenly, upon a moment of time, I saw everything differently. Who is to say this will not happen to you a moment from now, or tomorrow, or next year, or when you die and see Him? Why would it not be the case that a loving God presents Himself when the beloved is ready to receive Him and no sooner? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/153 "2005-03-08T20:37:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yes, of course. No one believes anything against his will; however, that is not to say that a man chooses what to believe. There are two aspects to freewill: volition and liberty. I’m not sure I agree, but that’s because I’m not sure what you mean here. For myself, I believe belief is wholly involuntary: if I am given a set of facts, then given who I am, I am not capable of drawing multiple, mutually exclusive conclusions from these facts. Given what I know about the universe, I do not **choose** to disbelieve in **God** ; my will doesn’t enter into the matter. I **conclude** that God is unlikely to exist. I could will myself to **pretend** to believe in God, but not to believe in God. Also, I’m having trouble reconciling this statement of yours with one from last week, in a conversation about certain Christians, in which you asked: > [@](#): > > Why do you feel compelled to seize the very thing that both sides here have argued that they cannot relinquish without manifesting psychosis and use THAT to disparage them? Putting aside that I considered and consider the question to be in deeply problematic, it seems to assume (correctly, I’d say) that a person cannot choose to believe that other than which they believe [without manifesting psychosis]. Can you explain to me how what you’re saying now jibes with this previous statement? I hope this doesn’t seem like semantic nitpicking: the question of whether belief is voluntary seems to strike at the core of your objection to **Czarcasm’s** argument. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/154 "2005-03-08T21:27:58Z")
No, it isn’t nitpicking at all, Left Hand of Dorkness. In your position, I would have asked the same question. And it is a rather fine point, but not a trivial one. It’s not the choice that’s voluntary; it’s the belief. The choice is compelled by circumstance, such as logic or experience. The belief is what you’ve decided it all means as a matter of interpretation. Compare the accusation against gays that Czar makes against the faithful. It is equally insidious. The choice to be gay is involuntary. A man is attracted to what turns him on. But how a man expresses his sexuality — no matter whether he is homo, hetero, or something in between — depends entirely on his volition. Belief is an expression of faith. Faith is given by God, just as sexuality is given by nature. There is no choosing whether to believe in God, but merely what it is about Him _that_ you believe One is metaphysical, and the other epistemic. A man believes what makes sense to him. But he also may, with that belief, hate God, resent God, or wish God would die. Uzi wants God to force her to believe. If He forced _me_ to believe against my will, _I’d_ hate Him. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/155 "2005-03-08T21:36:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > A man believes what makes sense to him. But he also may, with that belief, hate God, resent God, or wish God would die. Uzi wants God to force her to believe. If He forced _me_ to believe against my will, _I’d_ hate Him. I still do not understand–sorry! You analogy to gay people actually makes sense to me, but for different reasons: it illustrates the difference between **identity** and **action**. One cannot choose one’s sexual preference any more than one can choose to believe in God–I believe that’s true, and I think that’s what you’re saying. One can choose whether to have sex with men, just as one can choose whether to defy God–is this what you’re saying? > [@](#): > > It’s not the choice that’s voluntary; it’s the belief. Errr…what? Choice is, by definition, voluntary. I can’t make heads or tails of this. Again, I do not believe that my beliefs are reached voluntarily. They are formed through the alchemy of my observations and my sense of logic. I cannot change my observations, and I cannot change my sense of logic, except through accreting other beliefs in the same fashion. So when I (or someone else) speaks of God changing my beliefs, that doesn’t suggest interference in free will to me: that suggests that God gives me additional sensory observations that, combined with my understanding of logic, would cause a change in my beliefs. Since I couldn’t have chosen a change in my beliefs, no free will violation would occur. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/156 "2005-03-08T22:45:40Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > You analogy to gay people actually makes sense to me, but for different reasons: it illustrates the difference between identity and action. One cannot choose one’s sexual preference any more than one can choose to believe in God–I believe that’s true, and I think that’s what you’re saying. One can choose whether to have sex with men, just as one can choose whether to defy God–is this what you’re saying? Yes. I’m using “choose” in the sense of “To select from a number of possible alternatives” (American Heritage). When you are presented with evidence sufficiently compelling, there are no alternatives; there’s no choice to be made. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/157 "2005-03-09T03:50:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But he also may, with that belief, hate God, resent God, or wish God would die. Uzi wants God to force her to believe. If He forced _me_ to believe against my will, _I’d_ hate Him. I don’t want god to force me to do anything, I want proof that he exists. As to what that proof would entail should be easy enough for this God to figure out. He chooses not to for whatever reason he has to leave me in the dark as to his existence. I will not believe in things, anything, without a valid reason for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/158 "2005-03-09T04:39:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, you didn’t answer my question, but I don’t mind answering yours. Sorry, man. I thought it was rhetorical. > [@](#): > > But doesn’t that presume that He wants your belief no matter what it takes? Then why should I care if he doesn’t make it plain to me what he wants, if anything. I think this discussion doesn’t have much focus. Are we discussing what God wants from your personal perspective, or from the traditional religious standpoint? From the latter point of view it seems perfectly clear that he wants my belief and the consequences of not believing is me spending eternity in Hell. If we are arguing from the former, it seems that you have invented a new religion with your own rules as to what is expected. > [@](#): > > Suppose… Suppose… suppose… that He IS love. Don’t we deduce that He loves for the sake of love? That’s a whole lot of supposing going on there and not much basis in fact. I can’t live my life based upon supposing. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/159 "2005-03-09T10:53:51Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I don’t want god to force me to do anything, I want proof that he exists. As to what that proof would entail should be easy enough for this God to figure out. He chooses not to for whatever reason he has to leave me in the dark as to his existence. I will not believe in things, anything, without a valid reason for doing so. I can provide you logical proof that He exists qua Supreme Being, but you will not believe it because you have the conclusion you prefer already. Besides, existence is a trivial claim. The universe itself exists only subjectively. It is nothing more than a probability distribution. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044/160 "2005-03-09T10:56:12Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Then why should I care if he doesn’t make it plain to me what he wants, if anything. I think this discussion doesn’t have much focus. Are we discussing what God wants from your personal perspective, or from the traditional religious standpoint? From the latter point of view it seems perfectly clear that he wants my belief and the consequences of not believing is me spending eternity in Hell. If we are arguing from the former, it seems that you have invented a new religion with your own rules as to what is expected. Perhaps your first priority ought to be to decide what _you_ want. “The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” — Henri Bergson > [@](#): > > That’s a whole lot of supposing going on there and not much basis in fact. I can’t live my life based upon supposing. And yet you do it all the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-evidence-of-god/292044.md?page=9)