# Is there freedom of speech in any Islamist society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448 "2012-09-12T00:31:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/1 "2012-09-12T00:31:08Z")
Or are the two incompatible? (maybe a GD thread. If so, fine.) ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/2 "2012-09-12T00:34:39Z")
Define ‘Islamist’. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/3 "2012-09-12T00:35:34Z")
Define ‘freedom of speech’. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/4 "2012-09-12T00:37:29Z")
According to WikiIslam, which has a certain…point of view…[no](http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Freedom_of_Speech). But I echo the request for a definition of Islamic society. Does the \*government \*have to be explicitly religious? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/5 "2012-09-12T00:41:08Z")
[Mali is 90% Islamic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali), and has legally protected freedom of expression. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/6 "2012-09-12T00:42:04Z")
By usual definitions of Islamist, no. It’s completely incompatiable with the koran. Apologists would say there is freedom of speech in the sense that anyone calling the koran out as the evil thing it is is clearly insane and very much akin to the proverbial fire shouting in the theatre. Every time they use an argument like that, you should burn fifty korans. Of course there are majority islamic states with freedom of speech (I assume out of politeness, I can’t think of any though - mali certainly doesn’t count!) but they are not islamic ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/7 "2012-09-12T00:47:12Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Define ‘Islamist’. It means any government that adopts Islamic Law as its primary law. (Iraq in 2005, for instance). > [@](#): > > Islam is the state religion and a basic foundation for the country’s laws,[3] and no law may contradict the established provisions of Islam.[4] > **[Constitution of Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Constitution)** > > Member State of the Arab League > The Constitution of the Republic of Iraq (Arabic: دستور جمهورية العراق Kurdish: دەستووری عێراق) is the fundamental law of Iraq. The first constitution came into force in 1925. The current constitution was adopted on September 18, 2005 by the Transitional National Assembly of Iraq, and confirmed by constitutional referendum, held on October 15, 2005. It was published on December 28, 2005 in the Official Gazette of Iraq (No. 4012), in Arabic original, and thus came... ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/8 "2012-09-12T00:49:16Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > It means any government that adopts Islamic Law as its primary law. (Iraq in 2005, for instance). > > [Constitution of Iraq - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Constitution) No, that would be ‘Islamic’, as in an ‘Islamic society’. I want to know what the OP meant by ‘Islamist’. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/9 "2012-09-12T00:49:51Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > mali certainly doesn’t count! Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/10 "2012-09-12T00:52:52Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > No, that would be ‘Islamic’, as in an ‘Islamic society’. > > I want to know what the OP meant by ‘Islamist’. OK, you caught me. Congrats. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/11 "2012-09-12T00:58:08Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > No, that would be ‘Islamic’, as in an ‘Islamic society’. > > I want to know what the OP meant by ‘Islamist’. Actually, my usage seems to be correct. > [@](#): > > Leading Islamist thinkers emphasize the enforcement of Sharia (Islamic law); of pan-Islamic political unity; and of the elimination of non-Muslim, particularly Western military, economic, political, social, or cultural influences in the Muslim world, which they believe to be incompatible with Islam. > **[Islamism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist)** > > Political > Militant > Islamism is a range of religious and political ideological movements that believe that Islam should influence political systems. Its proponents believe Islam is innately political, and that Islam as a political system is superior to communism, liberal democracy, capitalism, and other alternatives in achieving a just, successful society. The advocates of Islamism, also known as "al-Islamiyyun", are usually affiliated with Islamic institutions or social mobilization movements... ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/12 "2012-09-12T01:01:06Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Why not? Because its constitution has about as much value as that of the 1977 soviet constitution, which also guaranteed freedom of speech. A constitution has no meaning at all unless it is actually followed. That is the thing that makes the British semi-written at best constitution considerably more valuable than say the 1991 Sierra Leone constitution. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/13 "2012-09-12T01:17:14Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Because its constitution has about as much value as that of the 1977 soviet constitution, which also guaranteed freedom of speech. What’s your cite that Mali’s constitution is not followed? [Freedom House rates Mali as ‘free’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_%28report%29#Sub-Saharan_Africa) with a rating only 3 points away from the UK. ---
**Author:** ![jmrcm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7c8e57/32.png) [@jmrcm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmrcm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/14 "2012-09-12T01:32:36Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Apologists would say there is freedom of speech in the sense that anyone calling the koran out as the evil thing it is is clearly insane and very much akin to the proverbial fire shouting in the theatre. Every time they use an argument like that, you should burn fifty korans. Yeah, one minute they’re calling the Koran evil. Next they’re denying the Holocaust. They go on about free speech, but give them half a chance they’d take away freedom of speech from anyone who disagreed with them. These people are not insane. They’re malevolent morons. The Judeo-Christian bible is full of murder, mayhem, plus gibberish and nonsense. That’s what I believe. Precursors of UFO religions. Do you believe the world is 8 thousand years old?..What about the fossils?,the fossils? Talk to Christians who don’t believe in evolution. Don’t even mention evolution, just talk to them about dog breeding. And they’ll yap away about the amazing diversity of breeds. And that you can do all that with selective breeding. They’re morons. You have gardeners, farmers etc, who don’t believe in evolution. Yet, they do evolution all the time. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/15 "2012-09-12T01:58:51Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > It means any government that adopts Islamic Law as its primary law. (Iraq in 2005, for instance). Presumably, such a society would have a law against blasphemy, (or else the reference to Islamic Law being its primary law would be purely cosmetic, I guess), and so freedom of speech would be limited at least in this way. Possibly it would also have a law against (non-Islamic) proselytism. Note by the way that this would be true also in a “Christian Society” defined in the same way. When I think of it, I believe that Algeria refers to Islamic Law in its constitution, but I don’t think blasphemy is on their books. I’m not sure of either statement, though. And anyway, if true, it would just be an example of a country that is “Islamic” only nominally (for instance, the UK is technically an “Anglican” society, with no separation of Church and State, but it hardly matters in practice). The more I think about it, the more it appears to me that this question is about who is a “true Scotsman”. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/16 "2012-09-12T02:26:07Z")
Is there freedom of speech in any theocracy? An Islamist society is not directly a theocracy. There are some, as pointed out above, but the majority of Islamist societies are not theocracies. Does freedom of speech exist in any society? Doubtful really. Pretty much every country on the planet has laws against some forms of speech. Inciting racial hatred is a common one prohibited in many western nations. Most of Christendom was once more than happy to burn heretics at the stake. As noted by **clairobscur** blasphemy laws exist in nominally Christian societies. Indeed the [Wikipedia page on blasphemy laws](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law) makes very sobering reading. Successful prosecutions for blasphemy against the Christian religion have been relatively recent in many countries. It may be that the USA is one of very few countries on the planet that prevents prosecution for blasphemy. Ireland on the other hand still has blasphemy **in** its constitution. If you want to create some form of ultra specific argument about freedom of speech that only worries about direct affront to a specific religion, it gets just silly. Do Islamist nations prohibit criticism of the government? Many do not. Many non Islamist states do. A some parts of the planet still have laws that can get you a lifetime in a prison camp for trying to expose corruption in the government. Singling out nations with laws that prohibit criticism of the established religion as not having free speech suggests a specific agenda that falls way short of the real question of free speech and its value to society. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/17 "2012-09-12T02:52:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > When I think of it, I believe that Algeria refers to Islamic Law in its constitution, but I don’t think blasphemy is on their books. [Algeria does not rate high on the ‘freedom of speech’ scale.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_%28report%29#Middle_East_and_North_Africa) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/18 "2012-09-12T04:00:56Z")
> [@bup](#): > > What’s your cite that Mali’s constitution is not followed? [Freedom House rates Mali as ‘free’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_%28report%29#Sub-Saharan_Africa) with a rating only 3 points away from the UK. The soldiers who [overthrew](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/world/africa/mali-coup-france-calls-for-elections.html?_r=1) the government of Mali in March of this year expressly suspended the country’s constitution. Also, the Islamic militants who [declared](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/07/world/africa/mali-rebels-proclaim-independent-state-in-north.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1333728086-ZXpwSz3KFqUnA4lteq4j4w) a breakaway nation in the northern half of Mali around the same time apparently stated their intention to impose Islamic law. Basically, Mali got royally f–ked by the war in Libya. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/19 "2012-09-12T04:04:04Z")
> [@bup](#): > > [Algeria does not rate high on the ‘freedom of speech’ scale.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_%28report%29#Middle_East_and_North_Africa) Maybe, but I don’t know if it has anything to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/20 "2012-09-12T04:20:16Z")
[Back in 2001-2002](http://www.freedomhouse.org/article/new-study-details-islamic-worlds-democracy-deficit?page=70&release=101) freedom house found Islamic countries were far less free than non-Islamic countries. > [@](#): > > Of the world’s 192 countries, 121 are electoral democracies. However, only 11 of the 47 nations (23 percent) with an Islamic majority have democratically elected governments. In the non-Islamic world, which comprises 145 states, 110 are electoral democracies (75 percent). Therefore, a non-Islamic state is over three times more likely to be democratic than an Islamic state. None of the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa is a democracy. > > In addition to a democracy divide, there is a dramatic freedom deficit between majority Islamic countries and the rest of the world. Of the states with an Islamic majority, only one, Mali, is rated Free. Eighteen are rated Partly Free, and 28 are considered Not Free. By contrast, in the non-Islamic world, 85 countries are Free, 40 are Partly Free, and 20 are Not Free. I thought there had been progress, but I guess not. As of 2012 29 not free, 20 partly free, 3 free. Which sucks, I thought a lot made progress of moving from not free to partly free. > **[Islam and democracy | Indices of democracy in Muslim countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_democracy#Indices_of_democracy_in_Muslim_countries)** > > There are several non-governmental organizations that publish and maintain indices of democracy in the world, according to their own various definitions of the term, and rank countries as being free, partly free, or unfree using various measures of freedom, including political rights, economic rights, freedom of the press and civil liberties. > The following lists Muslim-majority countries and shows the scores given by two frequently used indices: 2022 Democracy Index (The Economist) and 2023 V-De... I’m using the definition of ‘islamist’ as a nation with an Islamic majority, 51% or more. It doesn’t need to be a state that enshrines Islam into the government. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448.md?page=2)