# Is there freedom of speech in any Islamist society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448 "2012-09-12T00:31:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/21 "2012-09-12T11:27:50Z")
Moving from General Questios to Great Debates. **samclem** , Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/22 "2012-09-12T12:40:35Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’m using the definition of ‘islamist’ as a nation with an Islamic majority, 51% or more. It doesn’t need to be a state that enshrines Islam into the government. Whoa. That’s a **very** weird way to use the term “Islamist”, which generally refers to militant-extremist forms of Islam and advocacy of hard-line Muslim fundamentalism as the guidelines for civil society. If in fact what you’re referring to is a Muslim-majority nation, why don’t you just say “Muslim-majority nation”? Anyway, AFAICT Turkey has probably the most freedom of expression of Muslim-majority nations, with its adoption of various EU civil-liberties mandates, but its protection of free speech isn’t as far-ranging as that of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/23 "2012-09-12T13:39:18Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > It’s completely incompatiable with the koran. Care to back that up with, say, cites from the Qur’an, along with on-point hadiths explaining how what you assert is, in fact, the case? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/24 "2012-09-12T13:48:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Care to back that up with, say, cites from the Qur’an, along with on-point hadiths explaining how what you assert is, in fact, the case? Excellent post. Can I also additionally request some evidence that freedom of speech is somehow more compatible with the Jewish and Christian Bibles. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/25 "2012-09-12T13:52:48Z")
The Bangladeshi constitution explicitly guarantees freedom of thought and expression, although until last year it essentially had no safeguards on freedom of the press (journalists could be arrested for defaming the government). ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/26 "2012-09-12T13:57:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Excellent post. Can I also additionally request some evidence that freedom of speech is somehow more compatible with the Jewish and Christian Bibles. Is anyone making that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/27 "2012-09-12T14:55:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Care to back that up with, say, cites from the Qur’an, along with on-point hadiths explaining how what you assert is, in fact, the case? Sure, see [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm) for example. Naturally punishment for apostasy is incompatiable with free speech. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Excellent post. Can I also additionally request some evidence that freedom of speech is somehow more compatible with the Jewish and Christian Bibles. No. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/28 "2012-09-12T15:04:10Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Sure, see [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm) for example. Naturally punishment for apostasy is incompatiable with free speech. Please don’t tell me you think either [thereligionofpeace.com](http://thereligionofpeace.com) or Andrew Bostom are reliable sources. That’s like getting your information about Judaism from some neo-Nazi websites and David Duke. > [@](#): > > No. What does this mean? That you don’t believe that freedom of speech is more compatible with Judaism or Christianity or that you don’t know enough about the Jewish or Christian texts to find evidence that it is? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/29 "2012-09-12T15:05:40Z")
The implication of the thread is flawed. Freedom of speech is rare in Islamic countires - but also in non-Islamic ones. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/30 "2012-09-12T15:06:10Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Sure, see [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm) for example. Naturally punishment for apostasy is incompatiable with free speech. And naturally that site wouldn’t be cherry picking to go along with its agenda as stated [here](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm), would it? > [@](#): > > [TheReligionofPeace.com](http://TheReligionofPeace.com) is a pluralistic, non-partisan site concerned with Islam’s true political and religious teachings according to its own texts. We present the threat that Islam poses to human dignity and freedom, and document the violence that ensues as a direct consequence of this religion’s supremacist teachings. Sounds very unbiased. :rolleyes: Tell you what, I’ll wait for someone who’s not foaming at the mouth like that site’s author. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/31 "2012-09-12T15:07:02Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Sure, see [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm) for example. Naturally punishment for apostasy is incompatiable with free speech. What lunacy. Reading a religion’s texts only and thinking you understand that religion is idiotic. It’s like reading the Bible and thinking you understand Christianity. The bible calls for stoning non-believers to death - does that describe Christian doctrine too? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/32 "2012-09-12T15:31:31Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please don’t tell me you think either [thereligionofpeace.com](http://thereligionofpeace.com) or Andrew Bostom are reliable sources. > > That’s like getting your information about Judaism from some neo-Nazi websites and David Duke. Whatever, if you honestly think that apostasy is acceptable in most islamic societies you are hardly paying attention to the news! > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What does this mean? That you don’t believe that freedom of speech is more compatible with Judaism or Christianity or that you don’t know enough about the Jewish or Christian texts to find evidence that it is? > Thanks I don’t see why I should bother discussing the subject at all, the fact that other religions are also silly is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/33 "2012-09-12T15:33:27Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Whatever, if you honestly think that apostasy is acceptable in most islamic societies you are hardly paying attention to the news! “You’re not paying attention to the news” is also pretty lame evidence. It also doesn’t answer the question in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/34 "2012-09-12T15:47:13Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Whatever, if you honestly think that apostasy is acceptable in most islamic societies you are hardly paying attention to the news! The topic at hand is not apostasy. But since you’ve mentioned that, guess what Pakistan just did for a Christian pastor accused of apostasy from Islam. But before you do that, care to tell us what the Pakistani law on the subject of apostasy from Islam is? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/35 "2012-09-12T15:55:51Z")
Look, I agree that **Simple Linctus** has simply asked everybody in this thread to trust his confident swagger that he knows what he’s talking about, without any cites. Nevertheless, states with Islam-based constitutions fare very poorly with respect to freedom of expression/the press, from cites both **Wesley Clark** and I have provided. Secular states have much better track records. Israel, the only specifically Jewish state I know of, teeters right between ‘free’ and ‘partly free’ according to those same sources. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/36 "2012-09-12T16:11:06Z")
Bear in mind that this is all somewhat subjective. Would you rather live in a society where you couldn’t make fun of the state religion but you could say whatever you liked about the government and defamation was not legally actionable? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/37 "2012-09-12T16:49:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The topic at hand is not apostasy. But since you’ve mentioned that, guess what Pakistan just did for a Christian pastor accused of apostasy from Islam. But before you do that, care to tell us what the Pakistani law on the subject of apostasy from Islam is? What’s your point? Pakistan does have a law against blasphemy that sees a fair bit of use and support from a large segment of their society. Not free speech by any stretch of the imagination. What’s Islam’s position on blasphemy? I’m fairly sure it’ll be pretty harsh. Not that any other major religion is much better of course. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/38 "2012-09-12T16:51:16Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Look, I agree that **Simple Linctus** has simply asked everybody in this thread to trust his confident swagger that he knows what he’s talking about, without any cites. > > Nevertheless, states with Islam-based constitutions fare very poorly with respect to freedom of expression/the press, from cites both **Wesley Clark** and I have provided. > > Secular states have much better track records. Israel, the only specifically Jewish state I know of, teeters right between ‘free’ and ‘partly free’ according to those same sources. The world isn’t divided between secular and Muslim states alone. Yet. And plenty of secular states have terrible track records too. It’s not secularism alone that makes states free. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/39 "2012-09-12T17:08:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The world isn’t divided between secular and Muslim states alone. Yet. > > And plenty of secular states have terrible track records too. It’s not secularism alone that makes states free. What other sort of states are there? There was one Hindu state, Nepal, that’s gone now. The UK is nominally a christian state, but I’d argue that in practice it’s a far more secular state than the US. And a tu quoque about secular states does not say anything about Islamic societies, which is what the thread is about ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448/40 "2012-09-12T17:15:08Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > What other sort of states are there? There was one Hindu state, Nepal, that’s gone now. The UK is nominally a christian state, but I’d argue that in practice it’s a far more secular state than the US. And a tu quoque about secular states does not say anything about Islamic societies, which is what the thread is about Most “Muslim states” are as “secular” as most western states(Turkey, France and the US being the only real exceptions that I can think of). Only a handful of Muslim countries are theocracies. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan are the exception not the rule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-freedom-of-speech-in-any-islamist-society/634448.md?page=3)