# Is there literally something wrong with the South? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653 "2010-10-10T02:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/81 "2010-10-11T15:32:32Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > > [@Spoke](#): > > > > Now that one intrigues me. I wonder what accounts for that? It’s not poor roads. The roads here are as good or better than elsewhere in the country. 😕 > > The answer is more simple than you think. Traffic deaths are mostly a function the number of high-speed rural (non-interstate) roads. It is easier to kill yourself going 80 mph in the middle of nowhere in Montana than it is in Manhattan or Boston. Rural roads that allow high speeds are dangerous especially if people aren’t familiar with them. They aren’t well lit and have sudden curves than can send you straight into the woods or a lake if you don’t know it is there especially at night and in bad weather. Most rural areas have roads with places called a “dead man’s curve” because that is what it creates over and over. I suspect a lot of the difference is just 911 response time. I think a lot of the decrease in traffic fatalities in the last 50 years is due to improvements in trauma care. Even in the case of identical accidents, the person who is 50 miles from the nearest hospital and who is in a cell phone dead zone has a lot worse chance of surviving than the person who is only a few miles from a trauma center. I also wonder what our murder rate would be without the improvements in trauma care? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/82 "2010-10-11T15:52:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Of course there is also racism in the North. And of course the difference was a consequence of complex historical forces, not the inherent goodness of Northerners or somesuch. But in 2010 you’d think all southerners could acknowledge their own history in this respect and stop pretending it’s all northern propaganda. Part of the problem is, though, that a lot of criticisms of Southern racism come from a viewpoint of superiority. There’s the attitude of “Oh, look at the ignorant racist South. How different it is from the racial harmony of my own state.”. You’re not going to find many Southerners who deny that there was racism in the South, and the effects of that racism still affect the South today. But racism isn’t a Southern problem, it’s an American problem, and I think that a lot of Southerns are tired of being made scapegoats about the issue of racism, and tired of the stereotype that still exists that all Southerners are just a bunch of racist crackers. To quote Randy Newman on this, from his song Rednecks: > [@](#): > > We’re rednecks, rednecks > And we don’t know our ass from a hole in the ground > We’re rednecks, we’re rednecks > And we’re keeping the niggers down > > Now your northern nigger’s a Negro > You see he’s got his dignity > Down here we’re too ignorant to realize > That the North has set the nigger free > > Yes he’s free to be put in a cage > In Harlem in New York City > And he’s free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago > And the West-Side > And he’s free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland > And he’s free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis > And he’s free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco > And he’s free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston > They’re gatherin’ ‘em up from miles around > Keepin’ the niggers down ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/83 "2010-10-11T16:06:38Z")
Aside: I knew Forrest’s granddaughter when I was a kid. She owned a country store on Lookout Mountain, and was a fine lady. So I guess I think of her and, yeah, get a little defensive when people launch into tired attacks on Forrest based on half-truths. Forrest bears plenty of legitimate criticism without falling back on the false story that he started the KKK. As for the KKK, my impression is that Forrest saw it as a political tool more than anything, a way of regaining power from the Republicans. But there was never any real central control in the organization, and most of the local chapters just spun off into violence against black folks. I just don’t think you can lay all that at the feet of Forrest. He disbanded the Klan pretty quickly when he saw what was happening. And as I mentioned before, in his later life he spoke out against racial strife and in favor of reconciliation. Allow for some redemption. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/84 "2010-10-11T16:28:50Z")
Coming at the subject with a perspective of superiority is silly for many reasons. But there is a huge difference between acknowledging the racism of the North (and West), and believing that there were no historical regional differences with respect to the cultural and institutional dominance of white supremacist views. We can debate the origin of those historical differences, such as whether the explanation is purely a matter of the economics of slavery and the ensuing culture of slavery, but there is no room for reasonable disagreement over the existence of real differences that go beyond regions simply expressing equivalent racism differently. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/85 "2010-10-11T16:31:53Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > As for the KKK, my impression is that Forrest saw it as a political tool more than anything, a way of regaining power from the Republicans. But there was never any real central control in the organization, and most of the local chapters just spun off into violence against black folks. I just don’t think you can lay all that at the feet of Forrest. He disbanded the Klan pretty quickly when he saw what was happening. He didn’t disband the Klan, though. He ended his association with the Klan, and he claimed to have disbanded the Klan, but like you said, there was no real central control in the organization, and the various Klan groups kept doing what they were doing. And the thing is, the violence against black folks was almost never violence against black folks for its own sake. Klan violence was political, directed against the Union League, the Liberty League, and other elements of Southern Republicanism. The violence was targeted, against blacks trying to exercise civil rights, against people trying to educate blacks, against Republican party organizations, and against supporters of the Reconstruction government. Forrest terminated his association with the Klan in 1869, but the Klan continued until the passage of the Force Act of 1870 and the Civil Rights Act of 1871 let the federal government use the military, and suspend habeus corpus to forcibly suppress it. Forrest himself is a complicated individual that there’s a lot to like about and a lot to hate about, and I think so much myth developed around Forrest that its pretty much impossible to look at him objectively. I would recommend the book “The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest”. As Publishers Weekly describes it: > [@](#): > > Lost Cause apologists, they find, have celebrated Forrest as an untutored military genius and backwoods avatar of Southern chivalry, while Northern detractors and African-Americans view him as the epitome of brutal Southern racism, noting his pre-war slave trading, the Fort Pillow massacre of black Union prisoners by troops under his command and his post-war involvement in the Ku Klux Klan. To Agrarian intellectuals he was an “idealized yeoman farmer” championing an organic ante-bellum society against the soulless industrialism of the North, a guise that could make him either “the Southern equivalent of a fascist Aryan Superman leading a rebellion of the volk” or an insurgent against the centralizing fascist state. To writers like Faulkner he embodied a cherished but defeated and compromised Southern honor. In contemporary terms, he has become both an emblem of defiant Southern machismo, eclipsing the aristocratic Robert E. Lee himself, and the namesake of Forrest Gump, America’s favorite historical naïf ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/86 "2010-10-11T16:38:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Forrest terminated his association with the Klan in 1869, but the Klan continued until the passage of the Force Act of 1870 and the Civil Rights Act of 1871 let the federal government use the military, and suspend habeus corpus to forcibly suppress it. How is that Forrest’s fault, though? (I’ll check out your book recommendation.) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/87 "2010-10-11T16:54:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > KKK aside, the notion that you can officially commemorate the military prowess of traitors without glorifying their explicitly racist cause is silly The _United States_ military, today, has dozens of installations, and a few ships, named after Confederate commanders. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/88 "2010-10-11T17:18:34Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > > > What was the peace-loving KKK like, before it turned bad? > > A goofy fraternal organization for former Confederate soldiers. Basically, it was like a Masonic order gone bad. The reality is that the Klan began manifesting the racist/intimidation tactics for which it became notorious quite [early on in its existence](http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/history.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=kkk). _“Former Confederate officers, the six young men (who founded the Klan) organized as a social club or fraternity and spent their time in horseplay of various types, including wearing disguises and galloping about town after dark. They were surprised to learn that their nightly appearances were causing fear, particularly among former slaves in the area. They quickly took advantage of this effect and the group began a rapid expansion.”_ In other words, night-riding by Klan members quickly mutated from being a goofy prank into a means of oppression. I think a big part of the perception among some that there’s “something wrong with the South” stems from persistent denialism among a discouraging number of people who identify strongly with “Southern heritage” (of course, most people living in the South today (including a large immigrant population) have forgotten about the Lost Cause, do not care about those golden days of yore or have accepted history’s lessons about development of the South. There are undoubtedly some non-Southerners who engage in false or hypocritical stereotyping about the region. From the standpoint of someone who’s lived in the South for a good stretch and followed public discussions/debates (including on this board), my perception is that much of the residual friction would die out quickly if “Lost Cause apologists” would just stick a fork in it and move on. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/89 "2010-10-11T17:35:28Z")
[quote=“Jackmannii, post:88, topic:556653”] > [@Spoke](#): > > … > > There are undoubtedly some non-Southerners who engage in false or hypocritical stereotyping about the region. From the standpoint of someone who’s lived in the South for a good stretch and followed public discussions/debates (including on this board), my perception is that much of the residual friction would die out quickly if “Lost Cause apologists” would just stick a fork in it and move on. So what about the non-Southerners who engage in false or hypocritical (I would also include _hyper_critical) stereotyping? How about THEY stick a fork in it and move on? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/90 "2010-10-11T17:44:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > > [@Spoke](#): > > > > A goofy fraternal organization for former Confederate soldiers. Basically, it was like a Masonic order gone bad. > > The reality is that the Klan began manifesting the racist/intimidation tactics for which it became notorious quite [early on in its existence](http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/history.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=kkk). From your cite: > [@](#): > > The Klan’s increasing reputation for violence led the more prominent citizens to drop out and criminals and the dispossessed began to fill the ranks. Local chapters proved difficult, if not impossible, to monitor and direct. **In disgust, Forrest officially disbanded the organization and the vast majority of local groups followed his lead.** Some number of local units continued to operate but were eventually disbanded or sent into hiding by federal troops. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/91 "2010-10-11T18:14:18Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > > [@DanBlather](#): > > > > I’d love to see a cite on that. > > A cite for what? What I said should be common knowledge. Here is one of many. > > [Northern Profits from Slavery](http://www.slavenorth.com/profits.htm) I knew there had been slaves in all 13 Colonies, and that some of them landed in new England, but I had no idea of the extent. Thanks for the link and ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/92 "2010-10-11T18:24:12Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Not that I’m sure those things are untrue, but some cites would be useful. > > State [per capita income](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/rankings.html), bottom 10: > Violent crime rate (same source) worse 10: > > Highest infant moratlity (same source): > > Traffic fatalities, worse 10: I’m still not seeing a cite for your original claims. All you’ve done is grab a few random bottom/top ten lists. If we’re going on the U.S. Census definition of the South, then keep in mind it is this list of states: Alabama Arkansas Delaware Florida Georgia Kentucky Louisiana Maryland Mississippi North Carolina Oklahoma South Carolina Tennessee Texas Virginia West Virginia What you have shown is that some of those states rank poorly on some lists. What does that really show about the _South as a whole_ versus one of the other 3 Census Define Regions? How about you come back after you’ve actually done some research? (FWIW I have no idea what you will find.) I do know that it’s kinda ridiculous to assume that your lists are very conclusive when you can combine the population of West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Kentucky and you are still at a number lower than the population of Texas or Florida by themselves (you can throw Tennessee in there and you just barely surpass Florida’s population and are still under that of Texas.) Which is to say that while yeah, the South has a lot of poor states many of them are low population states and if you were to represent them as a % of the population of the total south it’d be questionable to use those states as the basis for any conclusive argument. I also know that Maryland (which is, by census definition part of the South), is usually at or near the very top in measures of per capita income by state. I also know people will argue “oh but Maryland isn’t southern”, which is to mean people that intrinsically dislike the south don’t think of Maryland as “a state full of hillbilly/rednecks.” However we’re going off the census here so you don’t get to cherry pick. Or if you do want to cherry pick then you will have a hard time keeping West Virginia and Kentucky on the list as far as I’m concerned. Part of your argument of course was also that your list of things goes to show that “something is wrong” with the South (let’s ignore for the moment you haven’t done any real work to substantiate your list at all), you also can’t really link all of those issues for the South as a whole. How do you explain the high poverty rates in West Virginia and Kentucky but also explain how those two states are amongst the safest in the whole country, in terms of both violent and property crime (from your cite.) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/93 "2010-10-11T18:26:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@DanBlather](#): > > > > State [per capita income](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/rankings.html), bottom 10: > > Violent crime rate (same source) worse 10: > > > > Highest infant moratlity (same source): > > > > Traffic fatalities, worse 10: > > I’m still not seeing a cite for your original claims. All you’ve done is grab a few random bottom/top ten lists. If we’re going on the U.S. Census definition of the South, then keep in mind it is this list of states: > > Alabama > Arkansas > Delaware > Florida > Georgia > Kentucky > Louisiana > Maryland > Mississippi > North Carolina > Oklahoma > South Carolina > Tennessee > Texas > Virginia > West Virginia > > What you have shown is that some of those states rank poorly on some lists. What does that really show about the _South as a whole_ versus one of the other 3 Census Define Regions? > > How about you come back after you’ve actually done some research? (FWIW I have no idea what you will find.) I do know that it’s kinda ridiculous to assume that your lists are very conclusive when you can combine the population of West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Kentucky and you are still at a number lower than the population of Texas or Florida by themselves (you can throw Tennessee in there and you just barely surpass Florida’s population and are still under that of Texas.) Which is to say that while yeah, the South has a lot of poor states many of them are low population states and if you were to represent them as a % of the population of the total south it’d be questionable to use those states as the basis for any conclusive argument. I also know that Maryland (which is, by census definition part of the South), is usually at or near the very top in measures of per capita income by state. > > I also know people will argue “oh but Maryland isn’t southern”, which is to mean people that intrinsically dislike the south don’t think of Maryland as “a state full of hillbilly/rednecks.” However we’re going off the census here so you don’t get to cherry pick. Or if you do want to cherry pick then you will have a hard time keeping West Virginia and Kentucky on the list as far as I’m concerned. > > Part of your argument of course was also that your list of things goes to show that “something is wrong” with the South (let’s ignore for the moment you haven’t done any real work to substantiate your list at all), you also can’t really link all of those issues for the South as a whole. How do you explain the high poverty rates in West Virginia and Kentucky but also explain how those two states are amongst the safest in the whole country, in terms of both violent and property crime (from your cite.) Do your own fucking research. I linked to the data that shows the ones at the bottom tend to be southern and the ones at the top tend to not be. If you want to run a regression analysis or something go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/94 "2010-10-11T18:55:32Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > Speaking of which, the war itself was also a big factor. The South lost big time. Their economy was destroyed and that screwed up everything else - education, health services, infrastructure. > > So did Germany in WWII, but they don’t keep claiming they fought for a worthy cause. They went on to build one of the strongest economies in the world. Actually, you’ll find a number of similarities between the South after the Civil War and Germany after the _First_ World War. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/95 "2010-10-11T18:57:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I knew there had been slaves in all 13 Colonies, and that some of them landed in new England, but I had no idea of the extent. Thanks for the link and ignorance fought. What the apologists don’t like to talk about is the amount of people involved. The apologists like to throw up anecdotes about individual slaves in the north - which is easy because you can practically identify every northern slave by name. New Jersey, which was the biggest slave holding state in the north, had a maximum of 12,000 slaves. When slavery was abolished in New Jersey there were eighteen slaves left in the entire state. At the same time, in the southern states there were individuals who owned hundreds of slaves and the total number of slaves was about four million. So claiming that there were slaves in the north and the south so the situations were equivalent is like claiming that Jews died in Germany and the United States during World War II. Surprisingly, apologists ignore the other big equivalency between the north and the south - how slavery ended. Because the two regions abolished slavery by identical means. In the north, slavery was abolished by the people of the northern states. And in the south, slavery was also abolished by the people of the northern states. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/96 "2010-10-11T19:11:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > New Jersey, which was the biggest slave holding state in the north, had a maximum of 12,000 slaves. [New York had the largest slave population of the northern states](http://www.slavenorth.com/newyork.htm): > [@](#): > > New York soon had had the largest colonial slave population north of Maryland. From about 2,000 in 1698, the number of the colony’s black slaves swelled to more than 9,000 adults by 1746 and 13,000 by 1756. Between 1732 and 1754, black slaves accounted for more than 35 percent of the total immigration through the port of New York. And that doesn’t count the many illegal cargoes of Africans unloaded all along the convoluted coast of Long Island to avoid the tariff duties on slaves. In 1756, slaves made up about 25 percent of the populations of Kings, Queens, Richmond, New York, and Westchester counties. And as of 1790, there were nearly as many slaves in New York (21,193) as in Georgia (29,264). [Cite.](http://thomaslegion.net/totalslaveslaverypopulationinunitedstates17901860bystate.html) But yeah, the ratios changed very rapidly after that. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/97 "2010-10-11T19:17:39Z")
Yankees tend to argue that southerners should “get over” the Civil War, but they always seem to bring it up in arguements. Shouldn’t there be some sort of Godwin’s law for that? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/98 "2010-10-11T19:25:24Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Yankees tend to argue that southerners should “get over” the Civil War, but they always seem to bring it up in arguements. Here’s what they really mean: If you Southerners would just meekly accept the status of the South as whipping boy for the nation we could all move on. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/99 "2010-10-11T19:30:03Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > Forrest terminated his association with the Klan in 1869, but the Klan continued until the passage of the Force Act of 1870 and the Civil Rights Act of 1871 let the federal government use the military, and suspend habeus corpus to forcibly suppress it. > > How is that Forrest’s fault, though? It’s not. Although, if you read Jack Hurst’s biography of Nathan Bedford Forrest, he suggests that Forrest might have actually disbanded the Klan (in Tennesee) in 1870 after Senter became governor and gave former Confederates back the right to vote, which sort of would make sense to me. (Hurst also suggests that Forrest’s early support of the Klan and his later repudiation of it was motivated primarily by his interests in the railroad; that he supported the Klan early on because he thought it was necessary to restore order and the South’s economy, and that he turned against it when he was afraid that it would interfere with his plan to import African laborers to build his railroad. You really need to read that section of Hurst’s book…the plan is a little insane. He gave an interview with a paper where he talks about how he wants to hire African labor and he thinks he can get federal support for it, and people will get over their race prejudice how smart and hard working the Africans are, and he and his associates already brought over 400, and only 6% died on the trip, and as soon as he taught them to stop eating grasshoppers and start eating cooked meat, they were the best workers he ever had.) But I think it’s easy to overstate Forrest’s control of the Klan. It gets mentioned because of the Grand Wizard title, and also because Forrest was probably the most influential person associated with the Klan, but he didn’t really have any power with the Klan outside of Tennessee, and even inside the state, it was mostly titular. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/100 "2010-10-11T19:41:44Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > > > KKK aside, the notion that you can officially commemorate the military prowess of traitors without glorifying their explicitly racist cause is silly > > The _United States_ military, today, has dozens of installations, and a few ships, named after Confederate commanders. Yes, and therefore what? What is it that you think follows from that fact that contradicts my statement? And shall we explore who sponsored the naming of those vessels and installations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653.md?page=6)