# Is there literally something wrong with the South? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653 "2010-10-10T02:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/101 "2010-10-11T20:03:51Z")
I live in the southern part of the United States and I really like it here. While I think it’s unfair to paint all southerners with a broad brush the truth of the matter is that the South has a legacy that will take a while to live down. Do we have the most integrated population? I’d love to see a cite to back that up. When I go into rural towns I am sometimes surprised to find some that are totally white and others that are totally black. When I moved to a rural area I looked up the 2000 census and the county population was only .5% black and there was another .5% comprised of “other.” When I went to Memphis, Tennessee I was surprised when I realized that I was a white minority at the mall (forget which one). When I went to nearby Germantown the vast majority of people at those stores had pale faces like me. I live in a mixed neighborhood but other than one neighbor who has since moved I don’t really associate with any of my black neighbors. Whenever one my neighbors has a group of people over it’s either whites going to white occupied houses or blacks going to black occupied houses. Rarely does there seem to be a mix. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/102 "2010-10-11T20:59:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > A few states come to mind that would be redder than the reddest state if it were not for the urban areas: New York, Pennsylvania, California. Were it not for NYC, Philly, and the LA area respectively, you could count on those states being locks for the GOP. Slightly off-topic, but no. You may be assuming, like many do, that New York City is the only metropolitan area in the state. Buffalo (despite being the home of Carl Paladino), Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, Binghamton, Utica, Ithaca (_especially_ Ithaca), and surrounding suburban areas lean Democratic. It’s a somewhat different form of liberalism; traditionally more labor-oriented than the fiscal-oriented liberalism more common downstate. Excepting Paladino, Republicans in New York, and the Northeast in general, tend to be more Rockefeller Republican-oriented, and far more more socially liberal than their fellow Republicans elsewhere. There’s a streak of mild social conservatism in some parts of upstate New York, but it’s mainly thanks to the very large old-school Catholic population. Rural upstate New York and rural South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, and so on have almost nothing in common, except that they’re rural, and they both have a more prevalent ourdoorsman culture than whats found in cities. I hate the way Paladino is validating the old stereotype of “Upstate hicks” held by Downstaters. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/103 "2010-10-11T21:13:48Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > > [@An\_Arky](#): > > > > Yankees tend to argue that southerners should “get over” the Civil War, but they always seem to bring it up in arguements. > > Here’s what they really mean: > > If you Southerners would just meekly accept the status of the South as whipping boy for the nation we could all move on. This is utter bullshit. The only thing keeping the Civil War alive is the south won’t let it go. The rest of us long since “got over” it. Get a clue guys. We don’t want to make you our whipping boys. You’re part of the United States just like we are. Lincoln and Grant and Sherman? Those were your guys and they won. You’re not Confederates. So why do you insist on putting up Confederate flags and statues of Robert E. Lee? Why are you guys so eager to join the other side? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/104 "2010-10-11T21:33:15Z")
**Brain Glutton** : Thanks for the link to _Albion’s Seed_. I was not aware of this theory. The obvious conclusion is that people with a cultural orientation other than that which underpins Southern culture might be more likely to have a ‘prickly’ reaction to it, and possibly without even knowing why. Verrry interesting. -I listened to the Radiolab episode on hookworms. Wow. Did not know that either. An anemic population certainly has ‘something wrong’ with it. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > That is a funny question to be asked by a guy named **Evil Captor** , you know that? > > But my point still stands: your constraints eliminate virtually all reasonable answers. Sorry. My intent is just to eliminate things for which people shouldn’t be blamed. Like, say, Southern accents. Some people may not like 'em, but besides being harmless one can’t really blame anyone for having one. I don’t really approach this board as if I am a genius with all the answers- on the contrary, this is a great place to watch ideas get put through the wringer. It is very educational. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/105 "2010-10-11T21:38:23Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > > Wow. That sounds familiar but I can’t name it. Shale, right? Got a linky? > > Its called the Haynesville Shale. There are a bunch of links out there if you are interested. Wikipedia has an article on it and there are Youtube videos as well that you can just google. There is also a limited release movie and web sites set up by the gas companies and mineral rights owners. Google any combination of those to find out more. They are drilling thousands of wells now to see what they get but it is going to be a tremendous amount of natural gas no matter what and the wells are really deep at about 12,000 feet or so. Thanks, I’ll check that out. Just think what a boon this public resource will be to the people of Louisiana once the profits from it are distributed to the public, or else invested in public works, fixing what is broke, etc etc. Wait, that’s not how it works, is it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/106 "2010-10-11T21:40:23Z")
edit: wrong message…forgive me. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/107 "2010-10-11T21:43:14Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Do we have the most integrated population? I’d love to see a cite to back that up. Segregation is a national phenomenon. However [analysis of housing data from the 2000 census](http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/housing_patterns/tab5-4.html) showed the following cities to be the _most_ segregated in the US: 1. Milwaukee 2. Detroit 3. Cleveland 4. St. Louis 5. Newark 6. Cincinnati 7. Buffalo 8. New York 9. Chicago 10. Philadelphia A [more recent study](http://www.thechicago77.com/2009/01/chicago-is-americas-most-segregated-city/) named Chicago the most segregated city in the country. Also according to census data, the most segregated state is [Michigan](http://mlui.org/print.asp?fileid=16480). Meanwhile the ten least segregated cities on the census list were: 1. Orange County, CA 2. San Jose 3. Norfolk, VA 4. Tampa-St. Pete 5. San Diego 6. Providence 7. Seattle 8. San Antonio 9. Oakland 10. San Francisco Looks like the West Coast gets bragging rights. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/108 "2010-10-11T21:44:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is utter bullshit. The only thing keeping the Civil War alive is the south won’t let it go. The rest of us long since “got over” it. I’m not sure what you mean by “let it go”. About the only people in the south who seem to have a hard time letting go are folks in the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy. For the most part the rest of the folks in the south don’t seem to worry too much about the Civil War aside from history buffs and people who want to make money on tourism. The Civil War is a bit more predominant here for a variety of reasons though. The first is that the majority of the war was fought in the south. You can’t swing a dead cat here without hitting something related to the civil war. The biggest reason is that the Civil War fundamentally changed southern society to an extent not matched in the north. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/109 "2010-10-11T21:47:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We don’t want to make you our whipping boys. Yes you do. The smugness and self-satisfaction fairly drip from Northerners when they talk about racism in the South. (Yet see the census numbers above.) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/110 "2010-10-11T21:55:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re part of the United States just like we are. Lincoln and Grant and Sherman? Those were your guys and they won. > > You’re not Confederates. So why do you insist on putting up Confederate flags and statues of Robert E. Lee? Why are you guys so eager to join the other side? The South is not the other side. The South is and always was every bit as American as any other section. Lee, et. al., were and are as much Americans as those you name. I reiterate, the _United States military itself_ considers Confederate commanders among its own history. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/111 "2010-10-11T22:01:26Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > > [@Shagnasty](#): > > > > Its called the Haynesville Shale. There are a bunch of links out there if you are interested. Wikipedia has an article on it and there are Youtube videos as well that you can just google. There is also a limited release movie and web sites set up by the gas companies and mineral rights owners. Google any combination of those to find out more. They are drilling thousands of wells now to see what they get but it is going to be a tremendous amount of natural gas no matter what and the wells are really deep at about 12,000 feet or so. > > Thanks, I’ll check that out. Just think what a boon this public resource will be to the people of Louisiana once the profits from it are distributed to the public, or else invested in public works, fixing what is broke, etc etc. > > Wait, that’s not how it works, is it? 😉 The state of Lousiana generates billions of dollars annually from the oil and natural gas industry. The Haynesville Shale is a boon to the people of Louisiana. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/112 "2010-10-11T22:08:03Z")
That Congress has named things after people who served in the Confederate forces says nothing about whether those traitors should be revered or ought to be considered members of the US military during their time as traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/113 "2010-10-11T22:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > The South is not the other side. The South is and always was every bit as American as any other section. Lee, et. al., were and are as much Americans as those you name. > > I reiterate, the United States military itself considers Confederate commanders among its own history. Robert E. Lee considered the Confederacy to be a part of the United States? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/114 "2010-10-11T22:14:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The South is not the other side. The South is and always was every bit as American as any other section. Lee, et. al., were and are as much Americans as those you name. > > > > I reiterate, the United States military itself considers Confederate commanders among its own history. > > Robert E. Lee considered the Confederacy to be a part of the United States? Seriously? Look closely, and you’ll see that’s not what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/115 "2010-10-11T22:14:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That Congress has named things after people who served in the Confederate forces says nothing about whether those traitors should be revered or ought to be considered members of the US military during their time as traitors. Calling them “traitors” just seems like juvenile taunting. George Washington was a “traitor” too. Should we banish him from history? The Confederates simply felt more loyalty to their state than to the nation as a whole. From their perspective they had the choice of either betraying their state or betraying the federal government. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/116 "2010-10-11T22:15:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Robert E. Lee considered the Confederacy to be a part of the United States? Seriously? Lee pushed very hard for reconciliation between the North and the South following the war. Even telling someone who badmouthed Grant to never do it again in his presence. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/117 "2010-10-11T22:24:50Z")
Well, isn’t it true that Lee was approached by both the North and the South to serve as general and that it was only after some time of presumably deep, reflective thought that he decided to serve the Confederacy? No cite for that- it was told to me by one of my teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/118 "2010-10-11T22:25:21Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > The Confederates simply felt more loyalty to their state than to the nation as a whole. From their perspective they had the choice of either betraying their state or betraying the federal government. Even that is putting it too much in modern terms. The states _were_ the nations, the homelands, of their people, North and South. What we call the “nation as a whole” was an administration set up _by_ the states. Northern states had considered secession before. Supporting the federal government over one’s own state would be like supporting the United Nations over one’s national government. There might be circumstances that support such a position for some people, but those people should expect that _they_, not upholders of more local sovereignties, will be seen as the traitors in many quarters. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/119 "2010-10-11T22:28:13Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > > > That Congress has named things after people who served in the Confederate forces says nothing about whether those traitors should be revered or ought to be considered members of the US military during their time as traitors. > > Calling them “traitors” just seems like juvenile taunting. George Washington was a “traitor” too. Should we banish him from history? > > The Confederates simply felt more loyalty to their state than to the nation as a whole. From their perspective they had the choice of either betraying their state or betraying the federal government. They were traitors. When discussing whether they should be considered part of the US military, that’s a pretty relevant fact. And the while dual loyalty thing is a smokescreen. Most Southerners voted to secede. If they voted against secessional then fought, that’s one thing. But most didn’t do that. The refusal to recognize that the South tried to cut and run when they didn’t get what they wanted electorally in order to protect slavery is among the problems with Southern Apologists. To some, perhaps including Lee, it was a question of misplaced loyalty, but people speak of that motivation as if it were the rule rather than the exception. Unlike George Washington, they were traitors for a deeply evil cause. Many saw that, and chose to not fight, to rebel against the Confederacy, or to fight for the North. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/120 "2010-10-11T22:30:11Z")
Never mind. Reading and posting from my phone too fast. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653.md?page=7)