# Is there literally something wrong with the South? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653 "2010-10-10T02:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/141 "2010-10-12T06:47:22Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > What a load of utter horse shit. Nobody I know approaches Civil War history that way. You are conjuring up straw men. Well then I wasn’t talking about you and your friends. I was talking about those other guys. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/142 "2010-10-12T12:35:56Z")
[QUOTE=Spoke] Criminal? He was never convicted of any war crime [/quote] There’s glory for you. > [@](#): > > and indeed there was letter evidence that he put himself at risk by riding between his men and the defeated Union troops to try to stop the slaughter at Fort Pillow. “Letter evidence”? That’s a good one. Speaks a lot more strongly than all the bodies, and testimony that Forrest hated and had executed blacks working with the Union. > [@](#): > > The troops caught under the bluff by the river had their arms with them. They weren’t “prisoners,” contrary to your earlier post. Obviously that negates their trying to surrender. They should have eaten those rifles, so as not to be caught with “their arms with them”. > [@](#): > > Also implicit was the suggestion that Forrest got things named after him in the South _because_ of his involvement with the Klan. (This is a suggestion first propagated by James Loewen, and then picked up as an internet meme.) In fact, his military exploits during the war were legendary, and he was acknowledged by generals of both sides as one of the great military geniuses the war produced. That is why he was idolized in the South. (Note the past tense. Nobody much remembers him these days.) His modern idolization in the South (and that of the Confederacy in general) seems to coincide remarkably with the rise of the civil rights movement in the late '50s and early '60s. It was in 1959 that the new high school in Jacksonville, Fla. was named after him at the urging of the Daughters of the Confederacy (this was also the period when Confederate flags started flying above state capitols in the South). And if no one cares about his “idolization” now, it’s odd that the Jacksonville school board voted just a couple of years ago to keep his name on the school. > [@](#): > > At this, his last public appearance, he made what the New York Times described as a “friendly speech” in which he called for reconciliation between the races and called for the admission of blacks into the professional classes from which they had heretofore been excluded. No doubt that after this little legacy-building exercise he spent his last days preaching against the Jim Crow laws. (crickets) The only thing you left out was that he loved his dogs. The revisionism doesn’t wash. All it does it highlight the residue of diehard Lost Cause sentiment and gives people the wrong idea about the South as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/143 "2010-10-12T13:09:25Z")
Well, I don’t care who you are, that was a fine speech. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/144 "2010-10-12T13:59:54Z")
Nearly all types of crimes are more prevalent in the South. [http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/sh20031119ar01p1.htm](http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/sh20031119ar01p1.htm) > [@](#): > > Regional differences have been found to exist in the kinds of crimes committed. BLS data and the data in the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report are broken down into four major U.S. regions: Northeast, Midwest, South, and West.8 From 1992 to 1999, the Northeast region experienced the highest robbery rates relative to the other three regions. The South ranked highest in terms of both overall property crime rates and violent crime rates; it had the highest rates for murder, rape, aggravated assaults, burglary, and larceny. The West ranked highest for motor vehicle theft, and the Midwest consistently ranked lowest of all three regions in violent crimes and property crimes.9 > [….] > Workplace violence continues to be one of the leading causes of on-the-job fatalities. Two factors–regional location in the United States and unemployment levels–appear to have significant impact upon the occurrence of occupational homicides. In terms of monthly average workplace homicide rates, the South Region has significantly higher rates than any other region in the United States. The South Region is followed by the West Region, which has significantly lower rates than the South, but which has significantly higher rates than the Midwest and Northeast Regions. Further: [DEATH BY MURDER](http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html) > [@](#): > > HOMICIDE RATE BY REGION, 2002 > REGION PER 100,000 > (1) Puerto Rico 20.1 > (2) East South Central 6.8 > (3) West South Central 6.8 > (4) South Atlantic 6.7 > (5) East North Central 5.8 > (6) Pacific 5.8 > (7) Mountain 5.3 > (8) Middle Atlantic 4.7 > (9) West North Central 3.2 > (10) New England 2.4 > The regions above can be defined as: > East South Central:Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee > West South Central:Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas > South Atlantic:Delaware, DC, Florida, Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia > East North Central:Illinios, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin > Pacific:Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington > Mountain:Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming > Middle Atlantic:New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania > West North Central:Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota > New England:Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont Murder of officers of the law is also higher in the south than in other regions of the country as well. As to the issue of racism, I have to encourage our Southern friends here to realize that trying to find ways to mitigate the impact of the KKK on the impression of Southern racism is a real non-starter. It’s a little like pointing positively to Josef Mengele’s advancements in the study of twin physiology. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/145 "2010-10-12T14:38:01Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > “Letter evidence”? That’s a good one. Speaks a lot more strongly than all the bodies, and testimony It does actually, being a contemporary account of the episode, rather than prepared testimony years later. > [@](#): > > They should have eaten those rifles, so as not to be caught with “their arms with them”. Doesn’t exactly square with your characterization of them as “prisoners” does it? > [@](#): > > His modern idolization in the South (and that of the Confederacy in general) seems to coincide remarkably with the rise of the civil rights movement in the late '50s and early '60s. Utter bullshit. What “modern idolization” are you talking about? He had things named for him all along. The fact that you found one from 1959 has no particular significance. I’m sure you could find similar namings from 1949, and 1939, and 1929. And are you suggesting the UDC was some kind of hate group? Really? _Wow._ > [@](#): > > And if no one cares about his “idolization” now, it’s odd that the Jacksonville school board voted just a couple of years ago to keep his name on the school. They should have probably changed it to satisfy the butthurt. > [@](#): > > No doubt that after this little legacy-building exercise he spent his last days preaching against the Jim Crow laws. You mean the ones passed in the 1890s, more than a decade after his death? That _would_ have been a neat trick! > [@](#): > > The revisionism doesn’t wash. All it does it highlight the residue of diehard Lost Cause sentiment and gives people the wrong idea about the South as a whole. Who keeps bringing up Forrest? Who mentioned Forrest in this thread? It wasn’t a Southerner. So who keeps stirring the shit? Let it rest. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/146 "2010-10-12T14:47:36Z")
Oh, and this: > [@Jackmannii](#): > > …testimony that Forrest hated and had executed blacks working with the Union. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/147 "2010-10-12T14:55:50Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > And are you suggesting the UDC was some kind of hate group? Really? _Wow._ I don’t think I’d go so far as to call the UDC a hate group, but I do get an “Oh, how they died in a noble cause, and isn’t it a shame we lost the war” vibe from them. And the organization was pretty strong in fighting against civil rights in the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/148 "2010-10-12T15:01:18Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > As to the issue of racism, I have to encourage our Southern friends here to realize that trying to find ways to mitigate the impact of the KKK on the impression of Southern racism is a real non-starter. It’s a little like pointing positively to Josef Mengele’s advancements in the study of twin physiology. Before the outraged cries of “Godwin!” start, I’ll mention I was thinking of an analogy with another accomplished soldier, Erwin Rommel. Here’s another guy who was accomplished on the battlefield, only without the baggage of war atrocities, prior slave trading or leadership in a violent turn-back-the-clock movement after the war. He actually opposed the evil of his leadership at a time when it was dangerous to do so (and it cost him his life). Yet I don’t think there’s any Erwin Rommel High School in Germany. They realize the value of not trying to sugar-coat and cling to the past. > [@spoke](#): > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > No doubt that after this little legacy-building exercise he spent his last days preaching against the Jim Crow laws. > > You mean the ones passed in the 1890s, more than a decade after his death? That would have been a neat trick! The first of these was passed in 1876 while Forrest was still alive. And that doesn’t include the [Black Codes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_in_the_USA) that were enacted after the Civil War. _“The black codes enacted immediately after the American Civil War, though varying from state to state, were all intended to secure a steady supply of cheap labor and all continued to assume the inferiority of the freed slaves.”_ Somehow I haven’t heard of Forrest working to get such laws repealed either. > [@](#): > > Who keeps bringing up Forrest? You keep trying to rehabilitate him. Interestingly, the same New York Times which you cite regarding Forrest’s “friendly speech” had [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest) to say upon his death: _“It is in connection with one of the most atrocious and cold-blooded massacres that ever disgraced civilized warfare that his name will for ever be inseparably associated. “Fort Pillow Forrest” was the title which the deed conferred upon him, and by this he will be remembered by the present generation, and by it he will pass into history…Since the war, Forrest has lived at Memphis, and his principal occupation seems to have been to try and explain away the Fort Pillow affair. He wrote several letters about it, which were published, and always had something to say about it in any public speech he delivered. He seemed as if he were trying always to rub away the blood stains which marked him.”_ The Wikipedia article also has interesting things to say about Forrest’s association with the Klan. _“Author Andrew Ward, however, writes, “In the spring of 1867, Forrest and his dragons launched a campaign of midnight parades; ‘ghost’ masquerades; and ‘whipping’ and even ‘killing Negro voters.”_ Yup, the man just _abnorred_ violence. More good stuff in the link about the various monuments and tributes to Forrest in the South that the “butthurt” Lost Causers just can’t seem to relinquish. > [@spoke](#): > > Cite? Try reading the SPLC link again. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/149 "2010-10-12T15:01:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > As to the issue of racism, I have to encourage our Southern friends here to realize that trying to find ways to mitigate the impact of the KKK on the impression of Southern racism is a real non-starter. It’s a little like pointing positively to Josef Mengele’s advancements in the study of twin physiology. And again, the hotbed of the Klan these days is the Rust Belt. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/150 "2010-10-12T15:06:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > As to the issue of racism, I have to encourage our Southern friends here to realize that trying to find ways to mitigate the impact of the KKK on the impression of Southern racism is a real non-starter. So who is trying to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/151 "2010-10-12T15:13:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > So who keeps bringing up Forrest? > > You keep trying to rehabilitate him. I didn’t raise the topic. And I am not “trying to rehabilitate him.” Just challenging factually incorrect statements about him. We are here to fight ignorance, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/152 "2010-10-12T15:21:00Z")
_We’re rednecks, we’re rednecks We don’t know our ass from a hole in the ground. We’re rednecks, we’re rednecks …_ ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/153 "2010-10-12T16:12:12Z")
Laugh or get pissed as the mood may strike you, but at least one [rather biased commentator](http://mwillett.org/Politics/CSA-and-Jesusland.htm) insists the problem with the South _and_ most of the West and Midwest is directly traceable to patterns of settlement by those god-bothering, whoopass-obsessed Scots-Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/154 "2010-10-12T17:27:47Z")
Kudzu. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/155 "2010-10-12T18:52:47Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Kudzu. [It’s moving north](http://www.lib.niu.edu/2000/oi000208.html). Like “sweet tea”, another invasive menace from the South. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/156 "2010-10-13T01:41:48Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Kudzu. :eek: I didn’t know that! ---
**Author:** ![Zephyurs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/dfb087/32.png) [@Zephyurs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyurs)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/157 "2010-10-13T04:52:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you favor or oppose allowing openly gay men and lesbian women to serve in the military? > '04 '09 > East 70 77 > Midwest 70 76 > West 68 71 > South 50 57 [linky](http://www.gallup.com/poll/120764/Conservatives-Shift-Favor-Openly-Gay-Service-Members.aspx) One of these is not like the other. > [@](#): > > Support for recognizing same sex marriage as valid, by region > East 51%/45%/+6% > Midwest 35%/61%/-26% > West 51%/43%/+8% > South 30%/69%/-39% [link](http://www.gallup.com/poll/107305/ruling-samesex-marriage-bucks-majority-view.aspx) This, to the South’s credit, appears to be a more coastal/interior divide than anything else. Even there, though, the South stands out. > [@](#): > > Which of these statements comes closest to your own point of view regarding the origin and development of human beings on earth? > > Human beings evolved / God created human beings > Northeast 43% 38% Margin: +5% > Midwest 37% 49% -12% > South 27% 51% -24% > West 38% 45% -7% [linky](http://www.visioncritical.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/2010.07.15_Origin.pdf) No one makes a particularly good showing here… but it’s clear the South is far more f’ed up than anywhere else. Interesting stats, at least ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/158 "2010-10-14T15:28:47Z")
The South has great food. That makes up for alot 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/159 "2010-10-14T17:13:26Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Kudzu. Zebra mussels. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653/160 "2010-10-14T17:34:18Z")
No, there is nothing “wrong” with the South. It’s superior in many ways to other parts of the US. Our culture has been enthusiastically imported by every corner of the country, and the world. We have given you music and art that changed the face of the planet. Southern artists, or artists that want to be Southern, are the most legendary of modern times. Every other part of the country, while decrying everything about the South, has, to one extent or another, co-opted Southern culture and claimed it for their own. That art sometimes comes from the troubled past of the South, and that’s what makes it interesting, of course. The food is excellent, and has more variation across the region than almost any other place. Tidewater cuisine to soul food to New Orleans to East Texas barbecue. Our food is as good as it gets. Our natural environment is the most biodiverse, well-preserved, and interesting in the country. We have old landscapes that date back half a billion years. We have a dynamic, high-energy ecosystem which, combined with the extraordinary geographical variation in the region, and the fact that it has not undergone glaciation or recent sea-level rise, supports an enormous variety of species both widespread and endemic. Further, we are one of only a few places on the planet where the average temperature has NOT increased due to Global Warming. This is most likely due to the fact that most people in the South now live in cities of varying size, and the rural regions are sparsely populated and heavily forested. By comparison, the young landscapes of the West and North are dull and uninteresting (not to mention badly depleted). We are still finding intact endemic communities and new species down here. I personally know one biologist who moved to Alabama from New York simply because there’s so very much to study here. I live in a cosmopolitan Southern city that hosts one of the finest medical schools in the world. My department has faculty that have done groundbreaking ecological work in Antarctica, and have Antarctic geographical features named after them. I live in an old neighborhood that is probably a 50:50 mix of white and black. I’ve lived this way my entire life. I never went to a school, in fact, that wasn’t at least 50% black. I’m perfectly aware of Southern history, but that stuff is going away, and probably faster than other regions of the country. Yeah, there are ghettos. Yeah, there is white flight. Those things are a product of being American, not Southern. And our girls are a hell of a lot prettier. 😛 Keep your California girls. I’ll take a Southern Belle or two, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-literally-something-wrong-with-the-south/556653.md?page=9)