# Is there more proof of Jesus than Evolution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054 "2006-08-17T05:30:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/141 "2006-08-23T16:36:15Z")
[QUOTE=Pazu] _All_ species are transitional species. To imply otherwise assumes that evolutionary processes have a specific morphologic conclusion as a goal, which is not the case. [/QUOTE] \ Except, maybe, those who go extinct without any other species evolving out of them - as I’m sure some species did when the asteroid hit. \ I like to use elephant seals as an example of a potential transitional species (if they make it) because, while marginally successful, they’re something that it would be odd to design, but perfectly understandable with evolution. Plus we had a great time dragging our kids to see them one Thanksgiving, which they still haven’t forgiven us for. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/142 "2006-08-23T16:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] \ Except, maybe, those who go extinct without any other species evolving out of them - as I’m sure some species did when the asteroid hit. \quote] That still wouldn’t mean they were morphologically “finished,” only that they died in “transition.” > [@](#): > > I like to use elephant seals as an example of a potential transitional species (if they make it) because, while marginally successful, they’re something that it would be odd to design, but perfectly understandable with evolution. > > Plus we had a great time dragging our kids to see them one Thanksgiving, which they still haven’t forgiven us for. 😛 I like to speculate on the possibility of future, giant-brained hominids looking back on homo sapiens as a “transition” between apes and real “people.” ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/143 "2006-08-23T17:09:44Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] \ Except, maybe, those who go extinct without any other species evolving out of them - as I’m sure some species did when the asteroid hit. \ [/quote] Well, that’s part of the problem with the term “transitional species”, right? 😉 You can only recognize them _in retrospect_, once they’ve left one or more descendent lineages. My feeling is that since evolution is a dynamic process linked to fluctuations of the local environment, the only way species cannot be transitional is if their environment becomes perfectly static and remains so in perpetuity. Or, I suppose, if a species becomes immune to environmental pressures in some way. > [@](#): > > I like to use elephant seals as an example of a potential transitional species (if they make it) because, while marginally successful, they’re something that it would be odd to design, but perfectly understandable with evolution. That’s a nice example actually, but I don’t think there’s anything “potential” about it. 🙂 One might have made the same comment about _Tiktaalik_ in its day. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/144 "2006-08-23T17:14:36Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I like to speculate on the possibility of future, giant-brained hominids looking back on homo sapiens as a “transition” between apes and real “people.” [/QUOTE] This sounds suspiciously optimistic, for a cynic. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/145 "2006-08-23T17:28:20Z")
> [@](#): > > The formation of new species as a result of geographic, physiological, anatomical, or behavioral factors that prevent previously interbreeding populations from breeding with each other? So you mean this ? > [@](#): > > Picky female frogs in a tiny rainforest outpost of Australia have driven the evolution of a new species in 8,000 years or less, according to scientists from the University of Queensland, the University of California, Berkeley, and the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service. > > The yet-to-be- named species arose after two isolated populations of the green-eyed tree frog reestablished contact less than 8,000 years ago and found that their hybrid offspring were less viable. To avoid hybridizing with the wrong frogs and ensure healthy offspring, one group of females preferentially chose mates from their own lineage. Over several thousand years, this behavior created a reproductively isolated population - essentially a new species - that is unable to mate with either of the original frog populations. > **[10.27.2005 - Picky female frogs drive evolution of new species in less than...](https://newsarchive.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/10/27_greeneyed.shtml)** No only do we have ample evidence of speciation (IDer’s much supposedly mythical “macro evolution”) in the fossil record we can can actually see it in action. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/146 "2006-08-23T17:36:35Z")
[QUOTE=griffin1977] So you mean this ? \ No only do we have ample evidence of speciation (IDer’s much supposedly mythical “macro evolution”) in the fossil record we can can actually see it in action. [/QUOTE] Predicted creationist response will be: “Big deal. They’re still frogs. They didn’t turn into penguins.” One can hope for a more reasoned reply, but I won’t hold my breath. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/147 "2006-08-23T17:45:18Z")
While adding some stuff to EvoWiki, I think I just discovered my new favorite anti-creationist argument. Creationist: “How can you know this is true. WERE YOU THERE???!” Me: “Well, yes, I was there. How can can you say that I wasn’t: WERE YOU THERE???” ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/148 "2006-08-23T17:49:11Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] As **Diogenes the Cynic** has pointed out, we have now come to the numbingly boring part of the thread that seems to be repeated every time a Wandering Creationist stumbles through, complete with dire warnings about how God is going to get us for actually follwing the evidence to conclusions. [/QUOTE] And now we have reached the end game: The Disappearance. Vanished. Gone. God called him/her home? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/149 "2006-08-23T18:05:54Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Well, that’s because it doesn’t just go fish, fish, fish, fishpig, pig, pig… [/QUOTE] SNAKE!!! Ahhh, it’s a snake! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/150 "2006-08-23T18:10:43Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] SNAKE!!! Ahhh, it’s a snake! [/QUOTE] :dubious: Have you been at the mushrooms, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/151 "2006-08-23T18:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=I Love Me, Vol. I] And now we have reached the end game: The Disappearance. [/QUOTE] While it would not be the first time such an event has occurred, I think that you should not leap to conclusions. There are people who have lives away from the SDMB (or even the internet). It has not been even 24 hours since his last post. He may return. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/152 "2006-08-23T18:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=Pazu] That’s a nice example actually, but I don’t think there’s anything “potential” about it. 🙂 One might have made the same comment about _Tiktaalik_ in its day. [/QUOTE] They have very limited breeding grounds, so my “potential” is in case they go extinct. For **Dio** - I see us becoming mobile robots with our brains downloaded into computer simulations of the brain, (with ample backup) but I agree - we’re transitional (or terminal.) ---
**Author:** ![srmclauren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@srmclauren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srmclauren)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/153 "2006-08-23T21:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Accepting the FACT of common descent requires no faith whatsoever. The strongest evidence for it is in retroviral genes. You probably don’t know what those are, but they prove common descent beyond any rational doubt whatsoever. If you’d like to challenge this assertion, please provide an alternative explanation for them besides common descent. No one can “create” evidence and there are lots of transitional forms. They’ve already been cited in this thread. That’s the first thing you’ve said I agree with. There is no EVIDENCE for a designer. There is nothing to ignore. We already have. You’ve chosen to ignore them. [/QUOTE] The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 (In case you didn’t get around to reading it for yourself.) Evidence for Him is what you have been studying all along to come up with these imaginative conclusions. See Romans 1 He is the alternative explanation you keep choosing to ignore. He designed the stuff that way. He designed you and me so that we would be stubborn and challenge each others preconceived notions. Thump, thump! Sorry, I just can’t help myself. The Designer made me do it. If you can’t find anything else, I will be Exhibit A. Aw, but then you would say He was a real stupid designer to come up with a design that won’t listen to circular/illogical reasoning. Well believe it or not, if you look in the mirror you will see exhibit B. (…or whatever letter you want to be.) He might be trying to reveal himself and his character and invisible attributes to you. You ignore it to your own detriment. There is still hope. Keep fighting. There is common descent within the same types of animals, and plenty of transitional forms. I’m saying the evidence for transitional forms changing from one type of animal to another, like fish to birds or reptiles to mammals is nonexistent and a figment of someones active imagination. I will concede that they don’t actually “create” evidence. It is in quotes because they really just take it and “fudge” a bit to make it fit their preconceived ideas of what should be there. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/154 "2006-08-23T21:58:28Z")
[QUOTE=srmclauren] The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 (In case you didn’t get around to reading it for yourself.) Evidence for Him is what you have been studying all along to come up with these imaginative conclusions. See Romans 1 He is the alternative explanation you keep choosing to ignore. He designed the stuff that way. He designed you and me so that we would be stubborn and challenge each others preconceived notions. Thump, thump! Sorry, I just can’t help myself. The Designer made me do it. If you can’t find anything else, I will be Exhibit A. Aw, but then you would say He was a real stupid designer to come up with a design that won’t listen to circular/illogical reasoning. Well believe it or not, if you look in the mirror you will see exhibit B. (…or whatever letter you want to be.) He might be trying to reveal himself and his character and invisible attributes to you. You ignore it to your own detriment. There is still hope. Keep fighting. There is common descent within the same types of animals, and plenty of transitional forms. I’m saying the evidence for transitional forms changing from one type of animal to another, like fish to birds or reptiles to mammals is nonexistent and a figment of someones active imagination. I will concede that they don’t actually “create” evidence. It is in quotes because they really just take it and “fudge” a bit to make it fit their preconceived ideas of what should be there. [/QUOTE] Got a question. In blithely witnessing to people who are trying to have a reasoned debate, are you: A) Making a bona fide attempt to win them to your way of thinking, or B) Witnessing without regard for whether it’s received or not, simply because you feel you’re commanded to in a “so I can shake the dust off my feet” way? I ask because if the answer is “A,” you really need a new approach. If “B,” then, by all means, carry on. This is the forum for it. ---
**Author:** ![srmclauren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@srmclauren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srmclauren)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/155 "2006-08-23T21:59:42Z")
[QUOTE=srmclauren] The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 (In case you didn’t get around to reading it for yourself.) Evidence for Him is what you have been studying all along to come up with these imaginative conclusions. See Romans 1 He is the alternative explanation you keep choosing to ignore. He designed the stuff that way. He designed you and me so that we would be stubborn and challenge each others preconceived notions. . [/QUOTE] Thinking that retroviral genes are anything but an amazingly intricate design would be the height of ignorance. Keep fighting. (This was quicker than finding the original quote. Forgive my reply to my own post.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/156 "2006-08-23T22:02:14Z")
[QUOTE=srmclauren] The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 (In case you didn’t get around to reading it for yourself.) Evidence for Him is what you have been studying all along to come up with these imaginative conclusions. See Romans 1 He is the alternative explanation you keep choosing to ignore. He designed the stuff that way. He designed you and me so that we would be stubborn and challenge each others preconceived notions. Thump, thump! Sorry, I just can’t help myself. The Designer made me do it. If you can’t find anything else, I will be Exhibit A. Aw, but then you would say He was a real stupid designer to come up with a design that won’t listen to circular/illogical reasoning. Well believe it or not, if you look in the mirror you will see exhibit B. (…or whatever letter you want to be.) He might be trying to reveal himself and his character and invisible attributes to you. You ignore it to your own detriment. There is still hope. Keep fighting. There is common descent within the same types of animals, and plenty of transitional forms. I’m saying the evidence for transitional forms changing from one type of animal to another, like fish to birds or reptiles to mammals is nonexistent and a figment of someones active imagination. I will concede that they don’t actually “create” evidence. It is in quotes because they really just take it and “fudge” a bit to make it fit their preconceived ideas of what should be there. [/QUOTE] After I boil all the irrelevant preaching out of this post what remains is a concession that you have no alternative explanation for retrogenes except that “a wizard did it” (and if you really knew what retrogenes were, you’d know that even a “designer” is an insufficient answer), a partial concession that transitional forms exist and an erroneous asserion that no transitions exist getween classes or genera (the word “kind” has no biological meaning, but I’m assuming that’s what you mean). That last part of your post is the only part with anything close to having any debatable content and it’s already been refuted un this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/157 "2006-08-23T22:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=srmclauren] Thinking that retroviral genes are anything but an amazingly intricate design would be the height of ignorance. Keep fighting. (This was quicker than finding the original quote. Forgive my reply to my own post.) [/QUOTE] The irony of this statement is astonishing considering that retroviral genes are parts of the “design” which are _damaged_. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/158 "2006-08-23T22:09:23Z")
[QUOTE=srmclauren] There is common descent within the same types of animals, and plenty of transitional forms. I’m saying the evidence for transitional forms changing from one type of animal to another, like fish to birds or reptiles to mammals is nonexistent and a figment of someones active imagination. I will concede that they don’t actually “create” evidence. It is in quotes because they really just take it and “fudge” a bit to make it fit their preconceived ideas of what should be there. [/QUOTE] Will you please answer my question from post #137? Now you concede that there are plenty of transitional forms? Common descent within the “same types” of animals? What are the boundaries of those “types”? How do you know what falls within a “type” and what doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/159 "2006-08-23T22:20:03Z")
Regarding your “God is revealing himself to you, you morons!” argument, **srmclauren** , I can’t help but notice that while we on the pro-evolution side of the argument haven’t been persuaded at all, _you_ in fact have conceded on several points. Perhaps it’s the truth of evolution revealing itself to you? ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054/160 "2006-08-23T22:25:48Z")
[QUOTE=srmclauren] Thinking that retroviral genes are anything but an amazingly intricate design would be the height of ignorance. [/QUOTE] Why? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-more-proof-of-jesus-than-evolution/369054.md?page=9)