# Is there no man's land left ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824 "2010-08-10T14:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/21 "2010-08-11T08:28:20Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > So there aren’t a few islands out in the Pacific that are too isolated or too small for any nation to bother claiming? Nope. For instance, amongst French oversreas territories, there’s a desert island mostly covered by water during high tides. And there has been an issue between two countries of the arabic gulf (can’t remember which ones, but one sent soldiers) some years ago about a minuscule island _totally_ underwater during high tides. When a volcanic island appeared in the mediterranean sea during the 19th century, Italy and the UK argued about possession of the volcano until it collapsed and sank again some months later. Don’t forget that with any piece of land comes the much more important Exclusive Economical Zone, generally much more important than the island itself (even when the island is actually populated). So, nobody is going to forget about any piece of rock they could possibly put a claim on. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/22 "2010-08-11T11:48:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Title says it all, really. Apart from the poles and the Moon, which AFAIK have been declared no-no in terms of individual or national ownership There is no land at the north pole. What land is near it is indeed claimed by various national and subnational entities (Canada, Russia, Greenland, and Norway). Much of Antarctica is also subject to territorial claims, though there are treaties governing its use. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/23 "2010-08-11T12:05:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But the actual question came from wondering if exile as a punishment for crimes would still be feasible today - as I doubt dumping criminals just beyond the border of a neighbouring country would make friends within said country. Exile doesn’t always have to be “from the country”: after the Spanish Civil War of 1936-9, a relatively-common punishment was “exile to 100km” (I know people who got it for times between 1 and 10 years). It was used for people who were of a political bent that didn’t match the winners’, but who were considered “not dangerous so long as they’re not getting together with a bunch of their same-ideology buddies”; the distance was enough to put them into a different cultural zone altogether. In some cases, only the person who’d received the punishment would move, but more commonly the whole family would; after finding a home, job and friends in the new place, many of them didn’t go back once the exile was over. ---
**Author:** ![Kilmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kilmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilmore)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/24 "2010-08-11T12:09:08Z")
If a new island appeared out of nowhere today, it would be interesting to see how it gets claimed. I don’t think being the first to throw down a flag will cut it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/25 "2010-08-11T14:25:44Z")
The Border between India and Pakistan has at places no mans land several yards deep. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/26 "2010-08-11T14:46:40Z")
It’s not un_claimed_, but ownership of [Western Sahara](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara) seems pretty ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/27 "2010-08-11T15:37:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Apart from the poles and **the Moon** , … are there still bits and pieces of land out there that belong to no one and have no flag flying over them? If you’re really including extra-terrestrial real estate in the scope of your question, then there’s going to be a hell of a lot of land that qualifies as “_no-man’s_”. In fact, pretty much all of it, to a good approximation. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/28 "2010-08-12T11:42:09Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > But the actual question came from wondering if exile as a punishment for crimes would still be feasible today - as I doubt dumping criminals just beyond the border of a neighbouring country would make friends within said country. > > Exile doesn’t always have to be “from the country”: after the Spanish Civil War of 1936-9, a relatively-common punishment was “exile to 100km” (I know people who got it for times between 1 and 10 years). It was used for people who were of a political bent that didn’t match the winners’, but who were considered “not dangerous so long as they’re not getting together with a bunch of their same-ideology buddies”; the distance was enough to put them into a different cultural zone altogether. In some cases, only the person who’d received the punishment would move, but more commonly the whole family would; after finding a home, job and friends in the new place, many of them didn’t go back once the exile was over. interesting! thanks ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/29 "2010-08-12T11:46:17Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > Apart from the poles and **the Moon** , … are there still bits and pieces of land out there that belong to no one and have no flag flying over them? > > If you’re really including extra-terrestrial real estate in the scope of your question, then there’s going to be a hell of a lot of land that qualifies as “_no-man’s_”. In fact, pretty much all of it, to a good approximation. Actually, in the sense of claiming them, the entire solar system is already spoken for: > **[Outer Space Treaty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty)** > > The Outer Space Treaty, formally the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies, is a multilateral treaty that forms the basis of international space law. > Negotiated and drafted under the auspices of the United Nations, it was opened for signature in the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union on 27 January 1967, entering into force on 10 October 1967. As of May 2025\[update\], ... ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/30 "2010-08-12T14:17:28Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > Apart from the poles and **the Moon** , … are there still bits and pieces of land out there that belong to no one and have no flag flying over them? > > If you’re really including extra-terrestrial real estate in the scope of your question, then there’s going to be a hell of a lot of land that qualifies as “_no-man’s_”. In fact, pretty much all of it, to a good approximation. Yeah, but the round trips to OGLE-2005-BLG-390Lb are killers on my wallet - especially with the price of gas right now. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/31 "2010-08-12T15:22:16Z")
> [@Kilmore](#): > > If a new island appeared out of nowhere today, it would be interesting to see how it gets claimed. I don’t think being the first to throw down a flag will cut it anymore. Well, new islands HAVE appeared, such as [Surtsey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surtsey), and the more recent volcanic island off Tonga. Of course, new volcanic islands tend to be economically useless (except maybe for tourism) and difficult to inhabit, at least in the short term. It’s also likely they will be near existing land, so it’s clear who they belong to, and nobody wishes to argue about it, provided the owners cooperate with the scientific researchers who will be interested in studying them. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/32 "2010-08-12T15:29:45Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > Actually, in the sense of claiming them, the entire solar system is already spoken for: > [Outer Space Treaty - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty) That’s basically a **non** -ownership treaty (as well as non-proliferation), at least for those nations who’ve ratified it. I suppose if Uzbekistan tried to claim Mars though, we wouldn’t be in a position to stop them yet. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/33 "2010-08-12T16:04:13Z")
[quote=“clairobscur, post:21, topic:549824”] > [@Finagle](#): > > Nope. For instance, amongst French oversreas territories, there’s a desert island mostly covered by water during high tides. And there has been an issue between two countries of the arabic gulf (can’t remember which ones, but one sent soldiers) some years ago about a minuscule island _totally_ underwater during high tides. > > When a volcanic island appeared in the mediterranean sea during the 19th century, Italy and the UK argued about possession of the volcano until it collapsed and sank again some months later. Holy [Jingo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingo_%28novel%29), Batman … ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/34 "2010-08-12T16:06:42Z")
[quote=“aruvqan, post:33, topic:549824”] > [@clairobscur](#): > > Holy [Jingo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingo_%28novel%29), Batman … Knowing Pterry\*, I wouldn’t doubt that that’s the very incident that inspired the book. \*Not personally! ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824/35 "2010-08-12T16:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Nope. For instance, amongst French oversreas territories, there’s a desert island mostly covered by water during high tides. And there has been an issue between two countries of the arabic gulf (can’t remember which ones, but one sent soldiers) some years ago about a minuscule island _totally_ underwater during high tides. For the French one, you may be thinking of the Bassas Da India, a coral atoll in the Mozambique channel: > **[Bassas da India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassas_da_India)** > > Bassas da India (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}French pronunciation: \[basa da ɛ̃dja\]; Malagasy: Nosy Bedimaky) is an uninhabited, roughly circular atoll located in the southern Mozambique Channel, about halfway between Mozambique and Madagascar (about 385 km \[239 mi\] farther east) and around 110 km (68 mi) northwest of Europa I... It’s main purpose seems to be to serve as a navigation hazard, accumulate shipwrecks, and provide wonderful wall dives for scuba divers. That doesn’t stop Madagascar and France from contesting ownership of it. At a few historical points, I believe there were suggestions from maritime interests that the damned thing be blown up to remove the hazard. If you dig through the CIA World Factbook, and look under “international disputes”, you will discover that most major nations have some contested bits of real estate. Canada and the US, for instance, contest [Machias Seal Island](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machias_Seal_Island) and nearby North Rock. “Hey, it’s part of Maine. It belongs to us.” … “No, it’s part of New Brunswick, and WE have a lighthouse on it.” … “You’re squatting. Besides, it’s a bird sanctuary.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-mans-land-left/549824.md?page=1)