# Is there no reference to Jesus in first christian century **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870 "2013-09-14T22:55:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/61 "2013-09-18T13:47:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Although that’s the traditional view, it’s not commonly accepted by most New Testament historians. The historians I’m studying explain that in the first century, there wasn’t a unified movement, and that orthodoxy developed only. As I understood it, the original question was whether there were/still are 1st century accounts of Jesus… The Roman Catholic Church (to which I have no particular tie) indicates 5 popes by the year 100 starting with Peter. The degree to which it was adequately organized or unified seems a different road? ETA: Some interesting reading on this… > **[Corrections Made to Official List of Popes - ZENIT - English](https://zenit.org/2001/06/05/corrections-made-to-official-list-of-popes/)** > > Revelations of "Pontifical Yearbook 2001" “The most significant historical doubt affects Peter´s second successor. After Linus, Cletus (80-92) or Clement could have been Pope, either between 68 and 76; or between 92 and 99. Therefore, one could have been Pope before the other.” Is it possible to respond to this “or maybe none of them existed at all or the dates are all off or fudged”? Sure. But that might also be just being obstinate for its own sake? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/62 "2013-09-19T01:35:56Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > As I understood it, the original question was whether there were/still are 1st century accounts of Jesus… The Roman Catholic Church (to which I have no particular tie) indicates 5 popes by the year 100 starting with Peter. > > The degree to which it was adequately organized or unified seems a different road? > > ETA: Some interesting reading on this… > > [Corrections Made to Official List of Popes - ZENIT - English](http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/corrections-made-to-official-list-of-popes) > > “The most significant historical doubt affects Peter´s second successor. After Linus, Cletus (80-92) or Clement could have been Pope, either between 68 and 76; or between 92 and 99. Therefore, one could have been Pope before the other.” > > Is it possible to respond to this “or maybe none of them existed at all or the dates are all off or fudged”? Sure. But that might also be just being obstinate for its own sake? No. Let’s look at the OP again: > [@destry](#): > > Can anybody verify or disprove the following? > > “In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references!” > > ~Bart D. Ehrman, James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill If you read the thread, this came from a debate with someone who is claiming that the New Testament is historical. It is clearly not. Likewise, there is no historical evidence that Peter was ever in Rome. That is tradition and not supported historically. Obviously, the Jesus followers were telling accounts of Jesus. The four canonized gospels and others which were not canonized are dated to the first century, and are centered around Jesus. So Ehrman’s claim could not be that “there were (not) 1st century accounts of Jesus.” Ehrman is a one of the most eminent New Testament scholars. Trust me, he has read Mathew at least once. Likewise, his point in specifying “Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet” is to demonstrate that there were not any outside accounts. Claiming that Peter may possibly have been to Rome and possible been there long enough to qualify as a Roman is far too much of a stretch, not the least of which is that Peter would not have fallen into any of the above categories. As was mentioned upstream, some may say that he is overselling this statement because so little private correspondence remains that Jesus not being mentioned in what little is left is not unusual. The greater point, though, is that for contemporaries what was more important than the individual was the movement which eventually became a large religion. Judea was the backwater of the Roman empire, and the historic Jesus was one of many who claimed or were claimed to be the messiah, which the Judeans were looking for temporal salvation from foreign rule. He wasn’t particularly noteworthy from the outside world. His movement, however, did take off and much later gained widespread recognition. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/63 "2013-09-19T01:59:28Z")
Hold the presses! Some vitally important new information has just been disclosed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=702456). > [@Billy Meier, whats the verdict?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/74): > > I’ve been reading the Talmud Jmmanuel. It’s an ancient scroll discovered by Billy Meier c1963 near Jerusalem. I think it tells the true story of the early christian church. It cleared up for me a lot of confusion that had been imparted by my religious upbringing. The TJ indicates Jesus’ real name was Jmmanuel and his biological father was an extraterrestrial human of high regard i.e. Gabriel. Most of Jmmanuel’s disciples falsified his teachings since they were not evolved enough to grasp their true meaning. But today increasing numbers of people can understand the truth. I recommend the TJ. This changes everything. Stop. Put down your pencils. Get yourself some TJ. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/64 "2013-09-19T02:59:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Hold the presses! Some vitally important new information has just been disclosed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=702456). > This changes everything. Stop. Put down your pencils. Get yourself some TJ. Actually, this does explain a lot. We always wondered why there wasn’t any more contemporary records. The fact that he was half alien _proves_ that this is the reason. Just think. Do we have any other record of half alien? Nope! They were suppressed as well. It’s obvious when you think about it, and there’s nothing which can disprove this. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/65 "2013-09-19T03:10:46Z")
You’re getting it perfectly. > [@Billy Meier, whats the verdict?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/54): > > The Meier case is designed with plausible deniability which means it cannot be absolutely proven nor debunked. Plausible deniability. If it worked for the CIA, it can work for anybody. Even the Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/66 "2013-09-19T04:35:56Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Actually, this does explain a lot. We always wondered why there wasn’t any more contemporary records. Actually, no, scholars have done nothing of the sort. In fact it’s a minor miracle we even have what we have. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/67 "2013-09-19T04:42:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, no, scholars have done nothing of the sort. In fact it’s a minor miracle we even have what we have. There were more people who were born half-alien?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/68 "2013-09-19T14:55:29Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > There were more people who were born half-alien?:eek: Superman’s kids with Lois Lane. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/69 "2013-09-19T15:09:07Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Superman’s kids with Lois Lane. There have been no inscriptions concerning those children either. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/70 "2013-09-19T15:22:34Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > There were more people who were born half-alien?:eek: Yes, exactly, and a good example of your dedication to serious research. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/71 "2013-09-19T15:34:41Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > …Get yourself some TJ. TJ 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/72 "2013-09-19T16:06:36Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > TJ 😕 Reread the quote in my post. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/73 "2013-09-19T23:13:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, exactly, and a good example of your dedication to serious research. :rolleyes: Whoosh ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/74 "2013-09-20T00:50:25Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Whoosh Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/75 "2013-09-20T01:16:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/76 "2013-09-20T01:48:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Yep. Poe’s Law in action. At this point: (1) I’m reasonably sure that you knew that you were joking. (2) I’m reasonable sure that I knew that you knew that you were joking, and hence my reply. (3) Your response to my response convinced me that not only was I correct in assuming you knew that you were joking and also that I was correct in my assessment about your assumption, but that I could be reasonably sure that you understood that I had assumed correctly about your intent and that my response was not only in line with your original intent but also, perhaps played along with it. (4) I wasn’t reasonable sure that DrDeth understood either that you knew that you were joking in your post, that I had been reasonably sure that you were joking and so I had replied as such. I also wasn’t reasonably sure that he understood that you then understood that I understood that both posts were not as serious as other posts. (5) At this point, in a state where I could not be reasonably sure that DrDeth did not understand what I was reasonably sure you understood what I understood, it probably would have been best to clarify that I actually reasonably understood that your understood what I understood. However, I not really a nice guy at times, and hence my reply. (6) Your post in reply further convinced me that you understood what I understood about your understanding and also you understood my reply to DrDeth was not to be taken at face value. Hence my reply to you, which should be noted was in line with the little joke about impossible to disprove theories. (7) DrDeth’s follow up comment further convince me that he didn’t understand that I understood . . . At this point, I’m just going to have to give up on explaining the joke and say you had to be there. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/77 "2013-09-20T02:26:16Z")
That noise you hear is not the sound of the joke whizzing over your head, but the noise your head made when it hit the floor after that post clipped it off your body. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/78 "2013-09-20T03:15:52Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The most powerful evidence of the existence of Jesus comes from Jesus’s brother, yet the most powerful christian churches in world history must deny that Jesus ever had a brother to supply this evidence. His [death warrant](http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/459.php) seems to indicate that he was a living being. Wonder if that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/79 "2013-09-20T03:23:29Z")
That noise you hear is my head exploding into derisive laughter. [Hoaxes from the Past (that Keep on Re-appearing)](http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/hoaxes-from-the-past-that-keep-on-re-appearing/) > [@](#): > > While awaiting more bookshelves for my office move, another book from the past that is worth knowing about: Famous Biblical Hoaxes, or, Modern Apocrypha, by Edgar J. Goodspeed (1931, reprinted 1956). Goodspeed was a shining star of NT scholars in the University of Chicago, and among the most important (if not the most important) American NT scholars of his time. > > In this book, Goodspeed discusses a number of “curious frauds that when they first appear . . . are promptly unmasked; but a generation, or a century, later, long after their exposure has been forgotten, they are revived by somebody and make a fresh bid for acceptance” (viii). Though ignored by scholars as unworthy of attention, such texts get peddled to the unsuspecting (or credulous) general public, and in these internet-days they can be touted around the world in a matters of weeks. To his credit, Goodspeed took the time to research, describe, and examine critically a number of these items. … > > “The Death Warrant of Jesus Christ” (various editions, a text originating in French in the 19th century)… [Modern Apocrypha](http://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/modern-apocrypha) > [@](#): > > The Death Warrant of Jesus Christ. This is a leaflet widely circulated in the United States giving Pilate’s warrant for the death of Jesus and enumerating the charges brought against Him. It claims to be the tr. from the Heb. of a copper plate found in the Kingdom of Naples in 1810. Needless to say, no such copper plate has ever been produced. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870/80 "2013-09-20T03:34:17Z")
Are you seriously denying that Jesus lived? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-no-reference-to-jesus-in-first-christian-century/668870.md?page=5)