# Is there really a movement for "equality = equal perception?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000 "2018-12-31T20:21:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/41 "2019-01-03T20:46:51Z")
You think it is reasonable to believe that white men speak too much and have too much influence. You are a white man. Connect the dots. Or perhaps you recognize that ignoring what people say based on the color of their skin or their gender or their age is a silly notion. Good - so do I. So don’t suggest it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/42 "2019-01-03T21:03:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You think it is reasonable to believe that white men speak too much and have too much influence. You are a white man. Connect the dots. That’s not an _ad hominem_ fallacy. An _ad hominem_ fallacy is when you argue against somebody else’s position based on a characteristic of theirs that’s **irrelevant** to the subject of argument. An example of _ad hominem_ would be saying something like “ **Shodan** ’s argument can be dismissed because white folks with Japanese usernames are just preening idiots”. Your use of a Japanese name, irrespective of whether it actually involves any preening idiocy, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic under discussion. But it is not _ad hominem_ to say something like “Person X should do a little more listening in this conversation about racial equality because Person X is a white man, and white men overall speak too much and have too much influence”. Nor is it necessarily illogical or fallacious in any other way for a white man to say that he agrees that white men speak too much and have too much influence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/43 "2019-01-03T22:27:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You think it is reasonable to believe that white men speak too much False. “Too much voice” is very, very different than “speak too much”. > [@](#): > > and have too much influence. You are a white man. Connect the dots. No idea what you’re trying to say here (other than the “too much influence”, which is true when compared to the influence of other groups). Like many of your other posts, I suspect the rest of this is about some fictional/fantasy version of me rather than my actual words. > [@](#): > > Or perhaps you recognize that ignoring what people say based on the color of their skin or their gender or their age is a silly notion. Good - so do I. So don’t suggest it. More fantasy stuff. I’ll be here when you want to respond to my actual words and not this imaginary stuff. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/44 "2019-01-10T14:23:57Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > The opinions of old white men have been the dominant - and often EXCLUSIVE - ideology for essentially all of human history, with often catastrophic results for the subject populations. If we are discussing a group’s right to self-determination, I should expect that people who are outside that group should have their voices count for very little. > > If I am asking women, “How would you like to be treated?’ the opinions of men on the subject are less than worthless. Likewise, if I ask black people, “How would you like to be treated?” I am not going to give even half a shit what a white person thinks. > > Maybe you should realize that the world does not revolve around you, and the advancement of these people does not come at your expense. I’m not sure what a group’s “right to self-determination” even means. It sounds like left wing buzz words. But if all we are talking about is a group’s right to do or think certain things, then I don’t know who would criticize that. But your second paragraph is just demonstrably false. When you ask women how they would like to be treated, it is not just women who are at issue now. Because the response to that question will involve what you are now being asked to do in order to accommodate their preferred way of being treated. Your voice in that discussion is ever bit as important as the woman’s voice because the result: your treatment of her and whether she likes or accepts that treatment involves both of you, not just her. No matter the person or the group, there are both reasonable and unreasonable answers as to how they would like to be treated. If women demand that if they are in supervisory positions they should be subject to no criticism at all, would you just simply agree with that? And if you don’t, remember you are white so your voice doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/45 "2019-01-20T05:48:30Z")
Complete eradication of gender seems to be the goal, equality is the word, both are misleading. What everyone wants is to gain all the benefits they see in the opposite group and as little as possible of the downsides while maintaining all the traditional benefits from their own group. Effectively most steps toward '“equality” generally accomplish this. Except in the case of married women with families working… In many cases this has resulted in simply doubling ( or at least increasing) their workload as they are still more likely to come home and do domestic tasks as well. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/46 "2019-01-20T05:57:15Z")
Because you know we’re human and that’s basically what all humans tend to do. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/47 "2019-01-20T21:28:46Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > What everyone wants is to gain all the benefits they see in the opposite group and as little as possible of the downsides while maintaining all the traditional benefits from their own group. QFT. I see some men complaining online, for instance, that women have this-and-that advantage, etc. but don’t see any such men lining up for the experience of menstruation cramps etc. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/48 "2019-01-20T22:05:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > QFT. > > I see some men complaining online, for instance, that women have this-and-that advantage, etc. but don’t see any such men lining up for the experience of menstruation cramps etc. Let’s say that I wanted to volunteer for that. How would that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/49 "2019-01-21T00:13:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Let’s say that I wanted to volunteer for that. How would that happen? Lol. It’s not really the point though. Velocities statement is a fair example of the concept as I percieve it. No matter what side your on it’s usually lucky you poor me, I want this benefit or that just like you have. Without so much as recognizing that it comes with downsides. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/50 "2019-01-22T16:21:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You think it is reasonable to believe that white men speak too much and have too much influence. You are a white man. Connect the dots. > > Or perhaps you recognize that ignoring what people say based on the color of their skin or their gender or their age is a silly notion. Good - so do I. So don’t suggest it. > > Regards, > Shodan Come on, you know better. The subject matters. Ask people their opinion of the weather. Ignoring the black view or white view is stupid. Ask how black people want to be or should be treated. The white view is superfluous. Like it or not, we inherit the baggage of those enslaving ignorant racist assholes of yesterday and today. It’s not enough to say “but I’m not racist, my opinion matters”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/51 "2019-01-22T17:23:22Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Let’s say that I wanted to volunteer for that. How would that happen? You don’t have to go that far. How about, say, volunteering to live a year in a society that is generally biased against your particular identity, and you see how that goes? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/52 "2019-01-23T07:58:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You don’t have to go that far. How about, say, volunteering to live a year in a society that is generally biased against your particular identity, and you see how that goes? Are you saying women are biased against women? Because they do represent a slight majority of society so for society to be generally biased against them that would be 100 percent of men and at least some women. Now biased social constructs I’ll believe. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000/53 "2019-01-23T08:04:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You don’t have to go that far. How about, say, volunteering to live a year in a society that is generally biased against your particular identity, and you see how that goes? Are you saying women are biased against women? Because they do represent a slight majority of society so for society to be generally biased against them that would be 100 percent of men and at least some women. Now biased social constructs I’ll believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-movement-for-equality-equal-perception/827000.md?page=2)