# Is there really a "wilderness" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709 "2000-05-17T01:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wood\_Thrush](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@Wood\_Thrush](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wood_Thrush)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/1 "2000-05-17T01:16:47Z")
Is there really a wilderness, as our culture percieves it, seperate from our society? How and when were we eliminated from nature and set as seperate? Or are we actually a part of nature, a part of the “checks and balances”? Will not some of the “bad” things we do to the environment, i.e. our overpopulation problem and habitat destruction, affect us in ways that will curb our “bad” effects? ---
**Author:** ![Argeable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5ac83/32.png) [@Argeable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argeable)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2000, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/2 "2000-05-17T01:54:42Z")
Sure there’s a wildnerness, Grant faught a very important battle there in 1863! No, seriously, I’ve thought along these same lines myself. This is a kind of different subject than the op, but it’s a moment of inspiration, so bear with it! All these environmentalist-extremeists say that humans have no place to interfere with the natural world. I hate to break it to you buddy, but the humans _are_ the natural world. We’ve evolved, we’re animals, what makes us different? And if we’re destroying our environment, it’s definetly going to come back to us. I’ve managed to get myself totally off topic, and just refer you to a straight dope column and then shut up: [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1\_314.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_314.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wood\_Thrush](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@Wood\_Thrush](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wood_Thrush)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2000, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/3 "2000-05-17T02:00:50Z")
ageables thoughts are part of what I’m trying to say here. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2000, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/4 "2000-05-17T02:05:00Z")
The Wilderness is where the Elven folk dwell. Draw whatever conclusions you will from that. ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2000, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/5 "2000-05-17T16:17:37Z")
I think we hit that line when we did more than make paths. There were tribes of slash and burn agriculture who did little harm to the environment, the enviornment able to absorb their little fields and homes within a few years. Once past that (as would have been necessary in climates not so warm and wet) and we left more than artifacts and were able to unbalance ecosystems. So would that be the first irrigation system? The first dam? Something beyond hunters and gatherers? Is the beginning to agriculture too recent? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2000, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/6 "2000-05-18T06:06:14Z")
According to whoever wrote “Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches” and “Cannibals and Kings” (Sorry, I forgot who the author is and in which book he talks about this), humans started getting out of whack with the environment when we were still hunter-gatherers. The author goes on to concluded that overpopulation and the resulting depletion of resources is the cause of warfare. He also claims that Mayans practiced human sacrifice in order to keep the ecosystem working right. Two very intersting books, I recomend them to all. ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2000, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/7 "2000-05-19T06:06:57Z")
No. I think ‘wild’ means beyond human control. There used to be places where civilized humans weren’t the highest on the food chain and we didn’t have control…there were savages, bears, mountain lions whatever. There isn’t a grain of sand we don’t have under scrutiny anymore. Now…I think it would be pretty easy to slightly change that definition and say ‘wild’ means anywhere where authority or ‘law’ isn’t…in that case, downtown LA seems like wilderness to me. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2000, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-a-wilderness/19709/8 "2000-05-19T07:26:32Z")
Well, if you mean “Wilderness” as “Wild”, as in “uncontrolled by humans”, then the ocean (a bit of a stretch, though), the Arctic, the Antarctic, the Sahara, the Australian Outback, the Himalayas… places like that would still count as “Wilderness”. And, of course, the sewers of New York City…