# Is there really any reason to NOT abandon use of national flags? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235 "2003-08-06T01:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/1 "2003-08-06T01:00:00Z")
This is actually a serious question, folks. What with all the emotion on the issue of “flag desecration” and “flag worship,” I’ve found myself wondering if there is really any need to have a national flag. What _real_ purpose does a flag serve _today_? Merriam-Webster defines _flag_ as: > [@](#): > > a usually rectangular piece of fabric of distinctive design that is used as a symbol (as of a nation), as a signaling device, or as a decoration There are more symbols of a nation than just a paritucular pattern of cloth. For example, there’s the Great Seal of the United States. Why, then, is it that only the flag gets the veneration? Today’s technology really seems to negate the former use of flags to identify which unit belongs to which army on the battlefield, so that seems to me to negate the 2nd part of that definition above. Also, I think I can safely make the comparison of flag veneration to cross veneration: not all Christian denominations display crosses (mine, for example, doesn’t but there are others) but that has not lessened the dedication of their members to the Lord or to the church. No longer making use of a national flag would be no different. How about we, as a nation, just opt out of the whole “flag waving” syndrome? What would it hurt? What would it accomplish? What would the politicians do if there were no longer flags? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/2 "2003-08-06T01:11:48Z")
Politicians would find another symbol to venerate. Do you think if we suddenly eliminated bandanas, that gang members wouldn’t find something else with which to identify themselves? It’s the same thing. Eliminating the object does not eliminate the concept. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/3 "2003-08-06T01:14:45Z")
Agreed. Eliminating the concept is much harder. I suggest starting by passing a law making it illegal to desecrate the US Constitution, then holding a vote on making it illegal to desecrate the US flag. Everyone who votes in the affirmative on the second vote will then be prosecuted under the preceding vote. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/4 "2003-08-06T01:26:31Z")
Actually, the flag burners need politicians to decry that act. If flag burning was ignored, no one would do it. So, it’s a self-perpetuating feedback loop. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/5 "2003-08-06T01:31:08Z")
Nobody does it anyway. It’s not like there’s an epidemic of flag burning. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/6 "2003-08-06T01:32:25Z")
I was kind of alluding to that bit about another symbol, John, when I mentioned the seal (the inanimate object, not some bloody big critter!). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/7 "2003-08-06T03:28:10Z")
Traditi-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-on! Tradition! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/8 "2003-08-06T03:32:29Z")
Tomndebb: You’ve never heard my comment, then, about tradition? “It used to be traditional to sacrifice the first-born.” That one doesn’t bother me 'cause I’m not the first-born in my family! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/9 "2003-08-06T03:39:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Today’s technology really seems to negate the former use of flags to identify which unit belongs to which army on the battlefield, so that seems to me to negate the 2nd part of that definition above. In our country’s case, the only reason we had a flag in the beginning was to identify our merchant and military ships at sea. None of our armies used it in battle until later. Flag veneration as a “tradition” didn’t seriously begin until the 1890s and wasn’t full fledged until people decided we needed some special traditions and hurdles for all the uncouth immigrants everyone was so scared of. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/10 "2003-08-06T03:59:41Z")
Because tieing the national bird to a flagpole would look strange? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/11 "2003-08-06T04:46:31Z")
I still think we should have gone with Ben Franklin’s choice of bird. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/12 "2003-08-06T05:15:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*I still think we should have gone with Ben Franklin’s choice of bird. \*\* Then we could eat eagles on Thanksgiving! How’s THAT for desecrating a symbol?! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/13 "2003-08-06T11:29:30Z")
Without flags, the parade at the Olympic opening ceremonies would be chaos! CHAOS, I tells ya! ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/14 "2003-08-06T11:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*In our country’s case, the only reason we had a flag in the beginning was to identify our merchant and military ships at sea. None of our armies used it in battle until later. Flag veneration as a “tradition” didn’t seriously begin until the 1890s and wasn’t full fledged until people decided we needed some special traditions and hurdles for all the uncouth immigrants everyone was so scared of. \*\* Francis Scott Key notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/15 "2003-08-06T11:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*In our country’s case, the only reason we had a flag in the beginning was to identify our merchant and military ships at sea. None of our armies used it in battle until later. Flag veneration as a “tradition” didn’t seriously begin until the 1890s and wasn’t full fledged until people decided we needed some special traditions and hurdles for all the uncouth immigrants everyone was so scared of. \*\* ??? The earliest Continental regiments carried the proto-American flag from 1777 on. The Continental Navy flew the ‘Don’t tred on me’ flag.I assure you that the American flag was carried by Union forces during the Civil War. Where do you get, “the only reason we had a flag in the beginning was to identify our merchant and military ships at sea” from? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/16 "2003-08-06T12:26:25Z")
Maybe he means the actual stars and stripes? The Betsy Rose is supposed to be the oldest version of that, 1776. But there were many earlier forms of national flag carried in battle, besides regimental standards. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/17 "2003-08-06T12:46:49Z")
“Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.” Said Samuel Johnson. I’m all for anything that would give those rascals one less venue. Too many pure scoundrels and worse wrap themselves in the Stars and Stripes. your humble TubaDiva ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/18 "2003-08-06T15:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Tomndebb: You’ve never heard my comment, then, about tradition? “It used to be traditional to sacrifice the first-born.” That one doesn’t bother me 'cause I’m not the first-born in my family! \*\* I think what Tevya-n-debb was trying to express was that there’s an invaluable emotionality attached to the flag as a symbol simply because there always has been. There’s a safety, a purpose, it helps our world make sense. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/19 "2003-08-06T16:13:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*In our country’s case, the only reason we had a flag in the beginning was to identify our merchant and military ships at sea. None of our armies used it in battle until later. Flag veneration as a “tradition” didn’t seriously begin until the 1890s and wasn’t full fledged until people decided we needed some special traditions and hurdles for all the uncouth immigrants everyone was so scared of. \*\* I’d love to see a cite for any of this… ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/20 "2003-08-06T16:23:43Z")
Too many people have had stuff drilled into their heads like “My daddy died in Korea defending the flag!” (as if it were the Korean flag they are talking about, but that’s another debate). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235.md?page=2)