# Is there really any reason to NOT abandon use of national flags? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235 "2003-08-06T01:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/41 "2003-08-07T05:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Apos_ > In our country’s case, the only reason we had a flag **in the beginning** was to identify our merchant and military ships at sea. None of our armies used it in battle until later. Flag veneration as a “tradition” didn’t seriously begin until the 1890s and wasn’t full fledged until people decided we needed some special traditions and hurdles for all the uncouth immigrants everyone was so scared of. > . > \ > . > Yes, him nonwithstanding (you’re forgetting that Key wrote about the war of **1812** , not the Revolutionary War. In addition, the story of its composition is oft misunderstood: the same flag did not fly through the night, and that would have been silly: **they flew a much smaller storm flag through the night** : they hoisted the now famous flag in the morning as soon as the weather cleared, and THAT was what Key saw from his vantage point 8 miles away) 36 years into a country’s life is still the “beginning.” Regardless of your opinions of Mr. Key, which I don’t care about either way, you admit that there indeed was a flag being flown during that battle. That’s all I was saying…that there were indeed flags being flown in battle in the beginning of our country. Your post implied this wasn’t the case until a hundred years after the country began. And besides, with a country full of diverse ethinicities, religions, and beliefs, it is hard to point to any one thing we all have in common. Respect for the flag is a nice way to unify an otherwise disparate people, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/42 "2003-08-07T13:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JXJohns \* > The smugness is that you feel you are right, which is fine with me. However you take it to the next level and claim that those who show respect to the flag are silly and juvenile. That’s an inaccurate rendering of what I actually said. I said flag veneration–flag worship–not respect is silly and juvenile. > [@](#): > > I think the basis of this thread is silly and juvenile. Perhaps because you inaccurately rendered what I actually said. Now that I’ve directed your attention to what I said, does your stance on the basis of this thread change? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/43 "2003-08-07T13:54:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by greck \* > We do use them in battle: The olympics, the world cup, any international sporting event. In fact, the flags make the events more interesting. I’d forgotten that “interesting” event where some athletes were disciplined by the IOC for daring to not show the proper reverence for a flag. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/44 "2003-08-07T14:34:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > **Well, there’s tradition and there’s tradition. This particular traditon of “flag worship” is what’s at issue in this thread, not tradition per se.** One man’s tradition is another man’s “flag waving”. ☹ > [@](#): > > **Well, neither do I. My point is that “just because we’ve always done this” isn’t exactly a really intelligent reason to do something that’s essentially not very intelligent-- that something being worshipping a flag.** It _really, really, really_ seems like you are speaking to everyone; even me and I don’t own a flag. > [@](#): > > **Fine. Let them feel good. What I have an issue with is the folks who want to require everyone else join them in flag worship.** See above > [@](#): > > **And, oddly enough, that’s almost never brought up until well into any discussion on this issue. That tells me that it’s the worship of the flag, not what it represents, that those folks are holding onto. Oh, btw, I’ve served & am retired from the US Navy, so don’t bring up any “if you had served” comments.** The first part seems to reenforce the idea that your rant includes all of us. I knew the second part about your service and wondered if perhaps they had you run the flag up the pole just once too often. 😉 > [@](#): > > **Nothing wrong with it when they do it for themselves. But when they start demanding others bow to a particular symbol the way they demand (“anti-flag desecration amendment,” etc.), then that’s a problem.** What got this started? Maybe a cite as to who _they_ are might help. It would especially help me decide if I’m one of _them_ or not. 😕 > [@](#): > > **Get rid of one way the majority could tyrannize the minority.** That’s like treating the sneeze, instead of the cold. 😛 > [@](#): > > **Then go puke and avoid the place if you dislike it that much.** Sorta sounds like **America** Love it or leave it\*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*Well, I’m a normal person and I think flag veneration is silly and juvenile. Thus my queries in the OP. \*\* Does being normal mean agreement with _me_? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/45 "2003-08-07T14:58:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*I’d forgotten that “interesting” event where some athletes were disciplined by the IOC for daring to not show the proper reverence for a flag. \*\* You do remember it don’t you? You have this memory to carry, it makes you a more knowledgeable person, more interesting and interested. You have this to discuss with others, and obviously care enough to pay attention and even be smug about it. Or at very least you had a weapon you could weild. Either way, you’re tied to others in our soceity by this event. That’s culture, you’re part of it, thank you for illustrating my point. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/46 "2003-08-07T17:05:28Z")
And yet I’m not smug, ridiculous charges (and they’re ridiculous) to the contrary. kniz: You can pretend all you want that I’m saying “they” to include every single person in the country, but you really should know that’s very dishonest intellectually. It’s kind of hard to not know to whom I was referring unless you decided to ignore the examples I put into parentheses. Scroll back up and look at the posting. & the comment about “love it or leave it” applies to the SDMB, not to the country. That is yet another bit of intellectual dishonesty on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/47 "2003-08-07T17:09:49Z")
greck: Of course we’re both referring to the famous/infamous “black power” salute during the Mexico City olympics back in 1968. p.s. to kniz: You quoted the cite as to who “they” are in your last posting. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/48 "2003-08-07T17:19:32Z")
[quote] 36 years into a country’s life is still the “beginning.” [quote] Sure, but even 36 years into the country’s life, still no one really cared about the flag re the flag. Key’s poem was noted because it was uncommon in using the flag as a metaphor for our perseverence. > [@](#): > > Regardless of your opinions of Mr. Key, which I don’t care about either way, you admit that there indeed was a flag being flown during that battle. That’s all I was saying…that there were indeed flags being flown in battle in the beginning of our country. Your post implied this wasn’t the case until a hundred years after the country began. Uh, no it didn’t (though I’m at a loss as to what you think the event Key describes was, and what you think that base was). I implied that flag veneration didn’t begin until later, which it true. And there were many many land battles that were NOT fought under the flag, even a late as Custer’s major battles. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/49 "2003-08-07T17:31:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Well you used them as an example that there was no ‘the’ national flag. no… There was a “the” national flag as of 1777. It wasn’t the regimental flags I was talking about when I pointed out that the various representations of “the” national flag demonstrate very little concern for the already unelaborate Congressional design. > [@](#): > > It didn’t state where and how the stars should be arranged and there were versions with the red-white-blue stripes, like the dutch ensign. The number and arrangement of stripes (unlike the stars, which came in all arrangements) was set by law. However, as I pointed out, even some of the founders seemed unsure as to what the flag even looked like. It wasn’t widely known, as I said. It rarely appeared in early American life. > [@](#): > > Not like today, no. But it was the period in which the very idea of nation was born. The national flag wasn’t ‘the’ symbol of a nation to the extent it is now. Hmmm… I seem to remember someone else saying this… but you seemed to be disagreeing with them before. > [@](#): > > With the rise of nations the symbolic value of the national flag grew. The French revolution was profuse with tricolores and by the time of the liberal revolutions of 1848 everybody wanted something similar. Yes, and I said as much already. The American flag was actually worshiped in Europe by hopeful revolutionaries long before it was as widely worshiped in the U.S. That’s what the Delaware crossing picture was painted: to inspire the Germans to rise up against their rulers (it didn’t work extensively enough, unfortunately) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/50 "2003-08-07T21:39:37Z")
I’m finding myself wondering why it’s so big a deal for some people that I’ve even dared to _ask_ the question. Let me try to rephrase the essential query: What, _exactly_, is it about the flag alone, among all the symbols of this nation, that gets people so uptight? Why is even considering abandoning that one particular symbol such anathema? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/51 "2003-08-08T03:19:23Z")
What other symbol does every American have in common? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/52 "2003-08-08T06:15:45Z")
Let’s see…the national bird, the national anthem, the… At any rate, not “every American” has the flag in common. There are those whose religion prohibits them from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/53 "2003-08-08T15:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Let’s see…the national bird, the national anthem, the… > > At any rate, not “every American” has the flag in common. There are those whose religion prohibits them from doing so. \*\* Wouldn’t that same religion keep them from recognizing ANY national symbol? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/54 "2003-08-08T16:08:12Z")
Yes. Which still means it’s valid to question why the flag in-and-of-itself is given special value. (As to “the one thing all of us have in common”, why, sily me, I thought it was the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/55 "2003-08-08T16:47:17Z")
Thanks, JRDelirious! I admit I was being flippant with my answer above. The correct answer is as you provided. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/56 "2003-08-10T08:23:12Z")
I disagree. I didn’t ask for a “thing” all Americans have in common, I asked for a symbol. I don’t consider _my_ right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to be a symbol; I consider it to be an inalienable right. I think the flag is given special status because of convenience, being that flying the flag is preferable to blasting the anthem on endless loop or keeping bald eagles in a cage. What religion prohibits respect for the flag? i didn’t realize there was one. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/57 "2003-08-10T09:42:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > What, _exactly_, is it about the flag alone, among all the symbols of this nation, that gets people so uptight? Why is even considering abandoning that one particular symbol such anathema? It’s ingrained/indoctrinated from childhood in the US. The whole ‘Pledge’ malarkey, the hand on heart, the rising anthems, the flag in the breeze, the ‘shining beacon of democracy’ stuff . . . . . appeals to the base human tribal instinct, which is why no one else does it. To nationalistic for comfort. And nonsense. All very last century, imho, or the one before that . . . but, I guess, it’s part of what empire’s do in order to do what they do . . . ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/58 "2003-08-10T09:48:38Z")
Ellis Dee: Jehovah’s Witnesses are one denomination that consider paying homage to any national symbol as a prohibited activity for their believers. Could you elucidate how _convenience_ became _worship_? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/59 "2003-08-10T11:06:24Z")
Our (NZ) flag has the Union Jack in the top left hand corner and then 4 red stars which symbolise the Southern Cross. The Australian flag has the Union Jack in the top left hand corner and 5 white stars which symbolise the Southern Cross. I can’t tell you how many times I have either been asked or overheard the question “Is that our flag or the Aussies?” But every Kiwi knows the silver fern and the black jersy is us. We all chose to, as nations, take something on that announces “i am a …” It doesn’t have to be the flag but i would feel fairly certain in saying every nation has something that makes it feel united. For us our flag is secondary to the Silver Fern symbol perhaps the ol’ red, white and blue is the most unifying symbol for the US. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235/60 "2003-08-10T12:36:54Z")
calm kiwi: I’m not asking about what is or isn’t a unifying sybmol. I’m asking why there’s this whole bit in the US about what amounts to _worship_ or _extreme reverence_ for one particular symbol. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-any-reason-to-not-abandon-use-of-national-flags/193235.md?page=4)