# Is there really such a thing as "hard science" fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 4, 2020, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170 "2020-12-04T03:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/181 "2020-12-10T21:21:02Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > That’s not about substandard containment; it’s a claim that you can’t contain life at all in the long run. And even more generally: But this is wrong in every possible way, because containing life is exactly what humanity has been doing with astonishing success since the Neolithic. And sure, nature adapts, but humans adapt, too - and we do it much quicker. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/182 "2020-12-10T21:24:16Z")
I make a comparison between Hard SF and Fair-Play Mysteries: In both subgenres, there’s a world with rules, some of which are explained in the story and others implicit, there’s a story which involves a problem, and the problem must be solved while following the rules such that the audience can play along. If a Fair-Play Mystery suddenly drops a solution onto your lap by saying the detective found all this evidence “offscreen” it isn’t Fair-Play anymore, and if the Hard SF story solves the problem by creating a new particle completely out of nowhere it isn’t Hard anymore. Hard SF not having much time for characterization is not an immutable characteristic, any more than Fair-Play Mysteries taking place in Interwar England’s Great Houses is an immutable characteristic. The main characteristic the focus on problem-solving in a world with consistent rules and logical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/183 "2020-12-10T21:24:50Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Just to toss another line-straddler into the mix - how about Niven & Pournelle’s _Oath of Fealty_ ? Sci Fi, techno, day after tomorrow fiction? There are some hard SF elements, but the main story is about people adapting to a new society and the resentment it causes in the old society. The “new society” is this thing called a “city”. It’s understandable that Niven and Pournelle would be unfamiliar with the prior art-- After all, they’ve only existed for eight thousand years. And no, the fact that the whole city is contained in one (very large) building is not in the least relevant. The fact that it’s a libertarian despotic autocracy is somewhat relevant, but that’s not a very interesting society to examine. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/184 "2020-12-10T21:31:07Z")
Sez you! Would I want to live there? Doubtful. Is it an interesting idea to explore? Certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/185 "2020-12-10T21:44:57Z")
That is a helpful way of looking at the distinction - and is probably why Hal Clement’s stories are considered Hard SF - he may use FTL to get to the story’s setting, but once there, he uses nothing but valid physics, chemistry and biology (extrapolated carefully) in the main plot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/186 "2020-12-10T22:21:46Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I make a comparison between Hard SF and Fair-Play Mysteries: In both subgenres, there’s a world with rules, some of which are explained in the story and others implicit, there’s a story which involves a problem, and the problem must be solved while following the rules such that the audience can play along. If a Fair-Play Mystery suddenly drops a solution onto your lap by saying the detective found all this evidence “offscreen” it isn’t Fair-Play anymore, and if the Hard SF story solves the problem by creating a new particle completely out of nowhere it isn’t Hard anymore. IIRC, Asimov also made that comparison (though for a completely different reason). ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/187 "2020-12-10T22:23:28Z")
It’s possible I’m half-remembering some Asimov. I certainly read enough of his works. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/188 "2020-12-10T22:28:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As another point, I wonder if SCP Foundation stories fall under soft sci-fi, or just straight up fantasy To me, they seem to be closer to folktales. Though horror tinged folktales heavily influenced by X-Files reruns. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/189 "2020-12-10T22:33:40Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > It’s possible I’m half-remembering some Asimov. I certainly read enough of his works The idea was, he’d been told that you can’t really do a fair-play mystery in a sci-fi story, as a character can always whip out some brand-new technobabble on the last page to solve the crime or whatever. And so he wanted to stress that, well, yeah, that’s _true_, but only in the same way that a conventional whodunit can suddenly wrap up a novel by introducing an eyewitness that hadn’t even been hinted at, or have the sleuth mention a piece of info that the reader had no way to know, or whatever — and that, if the sci-fi elements are instead set before the reader just like the other elements of a fair-play mystery, then everything can satisfyingly pay off as usual. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/190 "2020-12-10T22:36:00Z")
I’m sure my definitions are very simplistic, but this is how I think of it: Science Fiction: It takes place in space, with space ships, space aliens, robots, and AI. Fantasy: There are swords, wizards, magic, creatures inspired by myth, royalty, and people ride animals. Hard Sci-Fi: The author spends time explaining how the technology works. Soft Sci-Fi: The advanced tech exists, but technical explanations of how it works are no more than what’s required for the reader to understand what is happening. Hard and soft fantasy: Same as sci-fi, but around the rules of magic. One drop rule: A story with a single element of sci-fi is sci-fi, regardless of how many fantasy elements it has. Vice-versa if you think Star Wars is a fantasy story. Ground Hog Day is magical realism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/191 "2020-12-10T22:38:47Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Soft Sci-Fi: The advanced tech exists, but technical explanations of how it works are no more than what’s required for the reader to understand what is happening. [Marty McFly] “Time circuits, on; flux capacitor…fluxing?” [/Marty McFly] ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/192 "2020-12-10T22:44:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > “Time circuits, on; flux capacitor…fluxing?” Exactly, soft sci-fi. The car travels through time, and needs some jiga-watts. That’s all the audience needs to know. The companion hard sci-fi story has deep dives into Doc’s various inventions, and a Dark style examination of the time paradox of the flux capacitor going back in time to inspire the invention of the flux capacitor. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/193 "2020-12-10T22:44:42Z")
Yeah, Campbell told several authors that - and Asimov, Clement and Niven all took the challenge ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/194 "2020-12-10T22:51:47Z")
It certainly takes more than one drop to make a science fiction story. Take, for instance, the Hugo-winning fantasy story “Gonna Roll the Bones”. The opening paragraph mentions a spaceship flying overhead and says what planet it’s on, but the setting isn’t really an alien planet-- It’s a mining town, and could equally well be a mining town anywhere in the universe (or in another universe). Everything important in the story is just pure magic, without any attempt whatsoever to explain it, and it’s probably completely unexplainable. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/195 "2020-12-10T23:34:17Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > I’m sure my definitions are very simplistic, but this is how I think of it: > > Science Fiction: It takes place in space, with space ships, space aliens, robots, and AI. > > Fantasy: There are swords, wizards, magic, creatures inspired by myth, royalty, and people ride animals. Ah, so you’re classifying based on type of setting rather than type of plot. I’m curious how you classify Star Wars. It seems to fit both your definitions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/196 "2020-12-11T00:15:05Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > I’m sure my definitions are very simplistic, but this is how I think of it: > > Science Fiction: It takes place in space, with space ships, space aliens, robots, and AI. > > Fantasy: There are swords, wizards, magic, creatures inspired by myth, royalty, and people ride animals. “Avengers…ASSEMBLE!” ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/197 "2020-12-11T03:06:44Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’m curious how you classify Star Wars. It seems to fit both your definitions. Star Wars is sci-fi because it takes place in space, has space ships, and the monsters are space aliens. Even the fantasy elements are sci-fi. The wizard-knights fight with swords, but they’re laser swords. Sure, thematically it follows very traditional story and hero themes, but that doesn’t make it fantasy. I mean, _Battle Beyond the Stars_ isn’t a samurai or western, even though it follows the same story. Of course categories are pretty stupid, and things don’t have to fit neatly in just one. Star Wars is sci-fi with fantasy elements. It also has lots of war movie elements, and that’s even right in the title, but I wouldn’t shelve it next to Platoon. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/198 "2020-12-11T04:01:21Z")
I agree. While there is usually some liberties taken with science to make the engines or weapons work the author tries to adhere to science where they can. A good example of this might be “The Expanse” TV series (new season coming in a week!). The engines they use are not possible but only a little bit (they are still basically rockets and not magic hyperspace stuff) and the spaceships still need to adhere to normal physics of speeding up and slowing down and the various effects that has on the crew. And weapons are mostly kinetic, even in one instance just throwing a lot of rocks at something…which totally works. No fake gravity in the ships and other stuff too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/199 "2020-12-11T06:55:49Z")
Up until the completely un-physics-as-we-know-it Protomolecule moving an asteroid happens, and then stuff like that keeps happening. Including AG.. People like to say the Expanse _is_ hard SF, but it isn’t. It’s a bunch of people and tech _from_ a hard SF setting shoved _into_ a soft SF story (a lot of it is about interpersonal relationships) and setting (_everything_ about how the Protomolecule works). ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170/200 "2020-12-11T07:12:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > People like to say the Expanse _is_ hard SF, but it isn’t. Even the blurbs on the books touted it as Space Opera. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-hard-science-fiction/927170.md?page=11)