# Is there record of a person with a "Concealed Carry" license blowing his top and shooting people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328 "2011-09-14T18:45:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/21 "2011-09-17T15:40:05Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Most states are what are called “shall issue”, which means that they issue a CCW license to anyone who applies, unless there is a specific reason not to. Typically, the applicant must be a resident of that state, must be of legal age to carry, and must pass a background check. Some states require you to take a safety course. Some states require fingerprinting. > > The typical criteria for rejection are things like if you have been convicted of a felony or have been involuntarily committed to a mental institution at any time. It is the same for Ohio. In Ohio, many organizations predicted there would be “blood on the streets” if a CCW law was passed. It didn’t happen, of course. Quite the contrary… there are dozens and dozens of examples where CHL holders have protected themselves and others by virtue of having a CCW. And I vehemently disagree with **digs** … it is disingenuous, inflammatory, and downright insulting to refer to us CHL holders as “yahoos”. Not sure where that came from. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/22 "2011-09-17T15:51:33Z")
Actually, I believe “yahoos” referred to politicians who changed the law. Of course, if you have a concealed carry, must it stay on your person at all times? I wonder about someone putting it in a jacket pocket and hanging that on a hook in the corner of the room. Guaranteed to go missing sooner or later. Wonder what happens to a teacher who reports to the administration that someone in their class must have stolen his gun? Not to mention personal liability for any result… ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/23 "2011-09-17T15:58:32Z")
**Md2000** : There’s a lot of responsibility with carrying a CCW. Fortunately the vast majority of CHL holders are mature and responsible enough to carry. A few are not, obviously. Those who are against concealed carry focus on the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/24 "2011-09-17T16:23:38Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Oh yeah, the OP. The VPC link has boatloads of examples. CCW holder Kevin Hooper was drinking and shot his father in law during an argument: he had carried his trusty 45 on his hip to the party. CCW killer Bobby Ray Bordeaux Jr. only remembers bits and pieces of the day he killed one and wounded another during an argument at the Hogs > Pen Pub: he was too drunk. CCW killer Matthew R. Culbertson was drinking with Jerri L. Vernon: Culbertson decided to shoot a few rounds outside. When he returned Vernon asked him whether the gun was loaded. “Let’s see” said Matt, and shot her dead. > > Michael McLendon was a CCW holder and survivalist. He went on a rampage and shot 11 people, including himself. CCW holder Paul Michael Merhige allegedly shot 6 of his relatives during Thanksgiving, killing 4. He has not been caught. Terrance Hough Jr. killed 3 and wounded 2: apparently he was known by his co-workers as a “ticking > time bomb that finally exploded.” White supremacist and CCW holder Richard Poplawski allegedly shot 3 police officers and wounded another. The website notes that Poplawski’s mother told police that he had been “stockpiling guns and ammunition…because he believed that as a result of the economic collapse, the police were no longer able to protect society.” She additionally stated that “her son ‘only liked police when they were not curtailing his constitutional rights, which he was determined to protect.’” Guns and alcohol do seem to be a very, very poor mix. ☹ In Minnesota, the legal blood alcohol limit while carrying is 0.04, way below even the threshold for driving. Moral of the story: if you know you’re going to get pickled, don’t carry. And unfortunately, the cranks and nuts at the far end of the bell curve are going to be the first in line to obtain guns. Which is why pro-gun people support ordinary average people getting permits. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/25 "2011-09-17T19:20:30Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > And unfortunately, the cranks and nuts at the far end of the bell curve are going to be the first in line to obtain guns. Which is why pro-gun people support ordinary average people getting permits. Well, not all. I do not believe a person must first obtain a license or permit in order to legally carry a concealed weapon. I believe it is a right. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/26 "2011-09-17T20:55:49Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Well, not all. I do not believe a person must first obtain a license or permit in order to legally carry a concealed weapon. I believe it is a right. Point taken; but “Constitutional Carry” is something we’ll see when 50% of the population routinely carries instead of 2-3%. At least “Shall Issue” finally became the standard for most of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/27 "2011-09-18T20:31:47Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Moral of the story: if you know you’re going to get pickled, don’t carry. Good moral. Here’s another: if you have anger management or impulse control problems don’t carry. If you are bad at self-assessment, don’t carry: you might have alcohol, anger management or impulse control issues. If you are a personality that gets defensive easily, you may be bad at self-assessment. All of this applies to the OP’s concerns. > [@](#): > > And unfortunately, the cranks and nuts at the far end of the bell curve are going to be the first in line to obtain guns. Which is why pro-gun people support ordinary average people getting permits. But there’s something missing here: _you haven’t done the cost benefit analysis_. Sure, NRA magazines are packed with anecdotes of Joseph-Robert waving a gun and causing Scary Bad Person to flee. But guess what? The bad guy might have run away anyway. That happened just next door to me: a guy was climbing through an open window at 6AM. A female in her twenties staggered into her kitchen and looked at him curiously. He smiled, waved and ran off. If she had a gun I would guarantee that the story would merit an inclusion into one of the NRA’s monthly propaganda columns. Nor have you considered the alternatives which involve cell phones, self defense classes, etc. Finally, there is the possibility of faulty risk assessment: those owning guns are more likely to drive drunk, for example. Our most dangerous threats come from unhealthy foods, a sedentary lifestyle, smoking and failure to wear a seat belt. At the same time _I_ haven’t presented a C/B either. So while I can exclude certain interpretations involving a noble, patriotic CCW population (tentatively falsified by evidence - the US CCW crowd seems to have a higher kill ratio than the UK and France, both which have nontrivial criminal populations), I can’t go further than that. So I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/28 "2011-09-18T22:33:16Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > At the same time _I_ haven’t presented a C/B either. So while I can exclude certain interpretations involving a noble, patriotic CCW population (tentatively falsified by evidence - the US CCW crowd seems to have a higher kill ratio than the UK and France, both which have nontrivial criminal populations), I can’t go further than that. So I won’t. You do realize that you compared the **murder** rate of those countries with the stats from the VPC which included **accidents and suicides** , right? Plus a large number of those cases are listed as “pending”, meaning that in some of the cases, perhaps many, the CCW holder may have been involved in a justifiable homicide. Why don’t you compare the “convicted” CCW murder rate from the VPC with the murder rate of those countries you picked? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/29 "2011-09-18T23:37:50Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You do realize that you compared the **murder** rate of those countries with the stats from the VPC which included **accidents and suicides** , right? Plus a large number of those cases are listed as “pending”, meaning that in some of the cases, perhaps many, the CCW holder may have been involved in a justifiable homicide. Excellent point. In fact I said as much in my original point, but amplification is appropriate. I also noted biases working in the other direction: the deaths were presumably underestimated and the numerator was overestimated. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you compare the “convicted” CCW murder rate from the VPC with the murder rate of those countries you picked? Because doing this analysis right would require weeks of work and coding.[1] And even then there would be problems. Still, an enterprising criminologist has some decent material to work with at the VBC. [2] Methodologically though, I’m still highly dubious about the upstanding/awesome CCW claim: for that I’d want to see a kill rate of 0.20 per 100,000 instead of something a lot higher. Anecdotes about cop-killing white supremacist CCW holders don’t help either. And recall there’s the support of Garen J Wintemute’s study [4], if you think that taking a gun safety course proxies for CCW. That would be a conservative assumption, since I understand in many states CCW permits are issued like candy, and therefore requires less effort on the part of responsible gun consumer than attending courses. But to be clear, I cannot and do not rule out the, “CCW-people are normal” hypothesis. Gun owners who have not attended a gun safety course in the past 3 years are another matter. Wintemute showed that this population has a higher share of alcoholics, drunk drivers, and binge drinkers, though he did not use those labels. And we’re comparing shares that are well under 50% of course. [1] …unless there’s a dataset at the VBC website. What I found was ~4 numbers and pdf links to case studies numbering in the low hundreds. [2] A criminologist could distinguish between permits in shall issue states and areas where more hoops must be jumped. It’s conceivable that CCW+ (or CCW++) holders are awesome while shall issue ones are normal or even sub-normal, more likely to be involved with mayhem, mayhem defined as shootings, suicides, accidents, etc. [4] Association between firearm ownership, firearm-related risk and risk reduction behaviours and alcohol-related risk behaviours 2011. It reported that the population of gun owners who had taken a gun safety course had an incidence of various alcohol related risk behaviors that were statistically indistinguishable from the those who did not own firearms. Not superior to. Indistinguishable from. (For drunk driving and binge drinking the share was higher; for drinking more than 60 drinks in the past month, the share was lower). This is after controlling for demographics - if you don’t do that those taking gun courses are more risk-prone than those who don’t own firearms in all categories. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/30 "2011-09-18T23:45:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > n the low hundreds. > > [2] A criminologist could distinguish between permits in shall issue states and areas where more hoops must be jumped. It’s conceivable that CCW+ (or CCW++) holders are awesome while shall issue ones are normal or even sub-normal, more likely to be involved with mayhem, mayhem defined as shootings, suicides, accidents, etc. Just to make sure you’re clear, “shall issue” means a permit must be issued if the applicant passes the legal barriers( background, written/shooting test, etc) for a permit. In “may issue” states, you can pass everything with flying colors and still be denied because the issuing authority(usually the Sheriff) doesn’t want to issue a permit to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/31 "2011-09-19T00:32:25Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It is the same for Ohio. > > In Ohio, many organizations predicted there would be “blood on the streets” if a CCW law was passed. **It didn’t happen, of course. Quite the contrary… there are dozens and dozens of examples where CHL holders have protected themselves and others by virtue of having a CCW.** > > And I vehemently disagree with **digs** … it is disingenuous, inflammatory, and downright insulting to refer to us CHL holders as “yahoos”. Not sure where that came from. :rolleyes: Can you provide a cite for the part I bolded? It seems contradictory to me. How were CCW permit holders able to “protect themselves” _without_ “blood on the streets”? Were they pistol-whipping people? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/32 "2011-09-19T03:54:07Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Can you provide a cite for the part I bolded? It seems contradictory to me. How were CCW permit holders able to “protect themselves” _without_ “blood on the streets”? Were they pistol-whipping people? Go read the works of the criminologist [John Lott](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott) for more, but according to him and others, violent acts have been stopped by the mere display or brandishing of a firearm. I am **not** advocating that you do this yourself; every resource I’ve looked at for legal carry of a concealed pistol advocates that you don’t present the weapon unless you’re going to use it. I am just repeating Mr. Lott’s claim. (Which has come under considerable scrutiny and criticism.) Google for more. From the wiki: > [@](#): > > Attempting to quantify this phenomenon, in the first edition of the book, published in May 1998, Lott wrote that “national surveys” suggested that “98 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack.” In that same paragraph he also wrote that “[s]ince in many defensive cases a handgun is simply brandished, and no one is harmed, many defensive uses are never even reported to the police.” The higher the rate of defensive gun uses that do not end in the attacker being killed or wounded, the easier it is to explain why defensive gun uses are not covered by the media without reference to media bias. Lott argued that there is media bias, but, given that other estimates were available, the number that he was using was actually biased against the claim that he was making. Lott cited the figure frequently in the media, including publications like the Wall Street Journal[31] and the Los Angeles Times.[32] > In 2002, he repeated the study, and reported that brandishing a weapon was sufficient to stop an attack 95% of the time. Other researchers criticized his methodology, saying that his sample size of 1,015 respondents was too small for the study to be accurate and that the majority of similar studies suggest a value between 70 and 80 percent. 70-80% still strikes me as awfully damned high. But there you are. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/33 "2011-09-19T05:45:37Z")
I wouldn’t rely on Lott alone. Scholars have attempted to replicate that 98% figure [using Lott’s dataset](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2003/04/0425_2.php) without success. True, they still get pretty high figures (~92%) but the fact that nobody can replicate his work speaks poorly of his quality control. And there are serious methodological issues distinguishing between cases where a firearm makes a difference and when it does not as I stated above: surveying ~1000 people while they’re cooking dinner seems unlikely to get at the underlying issue. And Tim Lambert of the University of South Wales [maintains](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2003/04/0425_2.php): > [@Tim Lambert](#): > > 1. The sample size of just 7 defensive gun users is far too small for a point estimate like 95% to be at all meaningful. > 2. It is dishonest not to mention the markedly different estimates from professionally conducted surveys with samples containing hundreds of defensive gun users. > 3. Lott hasn’t even calculated the point estimate correctly. It should be 91%, not 95%. Furthermore, brandishing a weapon can _potentially_ result in [assault charges](http://volokh.com/2010/02/12/if-you-brandish-a-gun-in-self-defense-in-kansas-youd-best-shoot-it/), depending on jury, jurisdiction and conduct. **runner pat** : Thanks! I confess I don’t know the ins and outs of this issue, so clarification is always welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/34 "2011-09-19T15:08:49Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Furthermore, brandishing a weapon can _potentially_ result in [assault charges](http://volokh.com/2010/02/12/if-you-brandish-a-gun-in-self-defense-in-kansas-youd-best-shoot-it/), depending on jury, jurisdiction and conduct. BTW, the law was amended/repealed this year to prevent such insanity from occurring again. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/35 "2011-09-19T16:59:50Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > BTW, the law was amended/repealed this year to prevent such insanity from occurring again. Correction: it was amended on April 19, 2010, Senate Bill 381. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/50afbb/32.png) [@Agent\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Violet)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328/36 "2011-09-19T17:46:48Z")
I don’t have any statistics on conceal carry people going off the deep end and using their weapon out of anger…but i had a question… You say this guy has a temper. I don’t know what your state requires but when my husband got his conceal carry permit in maryland he had to go through a truly long and intense process to obtain it. One of the requirements was giving phone numbers of coworkers and family members to a police officer who conducted interviews with those people about my husband’s character…questions like “how would you describe dr.smiths temperament?” “would you say he’s quick to anger?” “have you ever been in a verbal disagreement with dr.smith,what was the outcome of that?” “would you consider dr.smith a calm person or an exciteable person?” i was told that if more than 2 of the people interviewed mentioned anything about a bad temper or lashing out then my husband wouldn’t have been approved. obviously, the answers were confidential so the applicant wouldn’t know which person gave him a bad reference. Is there anyway to get hold of someone in the licensing board to give an off the record character reference of some sort?? and…im pretty sure he can’t take a gun into a school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-record-of-a-person-with-a-concealed-carry-license-blowing-his-top-and-shooting-people/596328.md?page=1)