# Is there something odd about the Elizabeth Smart case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234 "2003-03-14T01:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/61 "2003-03-15T08:59:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wearywitch \* > \*\*Hi. I live in a community in Arizona, primarily Mormon (LDS). I have many acquaintences who are LDS, as a result. I have inquired about their religion, and have found more often, than not, that there are “sacred rituals”, and “sacred (you fill in the blank)” that even the most devout Mormon follower knows nothing about (because they have not yet achieved the “enlightenment” to know of this ritual". Is it not possible that Emmanuel told Elizabeth that he was instrumental in some capacity in her “ritual experience”? She comes from a devout family. Maybe she was told she was leaving with him to partake in a “spiritual initiation” - and from there she was putty in his hands. She may have felt she was doing the “right thing” for her family and church if he held the “key words” to entice her. Just a thought. \*\* **wearywitch** , that is a very good point. And, welcome to the boards! ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/62 "2003-03-16T03:52:30Z")
Apologies in advance if this is offensive: [I Have A Huge Crush On My Captor](http://www.theonion.com/onion3630/crush_on_captor.html) And I had no idea so many other people had read **Perfect Victim**. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![wearywitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@wearywitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wearywitch)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/63 "2003-03-16T05:19:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\*Apologies in advance if this is offensive: > > [I Have A Huge Crush On My Captor](http://www.theonion.com/onion3630/crush_on_captor.html) > > And I had no idea so many other people had read **Perfect Victim**. Wow. \*\* No apologies necessary. Let’s hope IT IS OFFENSIVE; if it is not, that is the “offense”. We are all potential victims, we just have different “buttons”, weaknesses, but someone somewhere potentially knows those “chinks in our armour”. Thank you for sharing this… ww ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/64 "2003-03-16T05:59:47Z")
I’m guessing the father said the window was cut from the outside for 2 reasons. 1. To show that Elizabeth did not leave voluntarilty, as i’m sure some people are assuming because she never tried to leave Emmanual 2. To show that he was not involved. I guess he didn’t want to end up being looked at like John Ramsy. As far as brainwashing, Elizabeth was a very religious person, so i’m guessing Emmanual already had a base to work with. In some religious cults, the idea that a person will be abandoned by god or punished in the afterlife for leaving the group is drilled in to prevent people from wanting ot leave. That idea might have been drilled into her that Emmanual was a prophet, and if she betrayed him or left him god would abandon her or punish her. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/65 "2003-03-16T06:07:25Z")
Three points: I’ve read “Perfect Victim” and it was a slightly different situation. The captor in that case enjoyed confining and torturing his victim, the brainwashing was just part of the whole deal. She was confined and tortured for weeks, maybe months, before she was even allowed to move freely. If you read the book, you’ll know the guy who did it was a sadistic psychopath who had his wife brainwashed as well, so much so that he voluntarily assisted in the kidnapping, confinement and torture of Stans – and the wife had been subjected to similar abuse. It’s not that analogous to the relatively brief, non-sadistic experience of Smart. Brainwashing isn’t necessarily a lengthy process. The most powerful element, sleep deprivation, might not even be recongnized by Smart as part of brainwashing as she underwent it. Some cults routinely use brainwashing techniques such as sleep deprivation, food deprivation and isolation from society on new members. It’s simple and very effective. That doesn’t mean Smart WAS brainwashed, we’ll only know that as things proceed, and we learn whether or not those techniques were used on her. But there’s PLENTY of reason to cut her some slack. Whatever your opinion on Smart’s competence at 15, I think any court will assume a reduced level of competence and culpability because of her age, even if she aided in the kidnapping. And rightly so, IMHO. This is the U.S. not some godforsaken Third World hellhole like … Texas. ---
**Author:** ![wearywitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@wearywitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wearywitch)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/66 "2003-03-16T07:41:44Z")
Well, all I can say is, “thank the Gods that something horrific happened to a 14 year old girl so we can sit around and condemn her, her family and her religion; thank the Gods that we can find some character flaw in her to justify (without actually saying that we are doing it) what happened to her, and pick the whoe damned thing apart as though we know, even slightly, what is going on”. NOT! This whole thing has taken a very wrong turn. Remember who we’re talking about. This isn’t a “reality t.v.series” - it’s the life of a litle girl - it ACTUALLY happened! She may some day find these posts… Tread lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/67 "2003-03-16T07:42:21Z")
First of all, Elizabeth’s sister did tell the police it might have been “Emmanuel.” The police chose not to believe her until just recently, it seems. Second, I agree with wearywitch. My daughter knows several Mormon girls of this age. They have a lot of pressure to conform to the religion, and to socialize with other Mormons. I imagine this is even stronger in Utah. This is not an upbringing likely to encourage Elizabeth to take chances until the brainwashing sets in. Remember the kidnapper was speaking in terms of old time Mormonism, so he was not asking Elizabeth to rebel against her upbringing at all. I wonder if the kidnapper’s reputation as a sweet old religious man was one of the things keeping him from being a prime suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Logical\_Phallacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Logical\_Phallacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Logical_Phallacy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/68 "2003-03-16T08:00:53Z")
the real reason she didn’t flee: kidnapper was good in bed. ---
**Author:** ![wearywitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@wearywitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wearywitch)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/69 "2003-03-16T08:07:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Three points: > > Whatever your opinion on Smart’s competence at 15, I think any court will assume a reduced level of competence and culpability because of her age, even if she aided in the kidnapping. And rightly so, IMHO. This is the U.S. not some godforsaken Third World hellhole like … Texas. \*\* I am 30-something, so it’s taking a great deal of energy to recall “15”… what was I doing at 15? I was a Junior in high school, I was the oldest of 3 children to a single mother. I knew everything… (right?). In retrospect, one phrase my mother “sing-songed” to me ALL THE TIME, the one that peeved me the most, was, “You have to be more careful, girl, I swear, if you drove past Charles Manson and he looked tired, you’d give him a ride!!!”. At the time, it was just another “over-protective-parent-trying-to-control-my-world-cliche”… and yes, I would have given him a ride, Charles who??? Now, I know better. Then, I was 15. ---
**Author:** ![wearywitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@wearywitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wearywitch)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/70 "2003-03-16T08:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Logical Phallacy \* > \*\*the real reason she didn’t flee: kidnapper was good in bed. \*\* What a stupid, irresponsible thing to say. You’ve been flagged. We’re talking about a child, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/71 "2003-03-16T09:06:47Z")
A 15 year old is not a child. The remark may have been crude and tasteless, but 15 year olds _have_ been known to have sex. ---
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/72 "2003-03-16T11:23:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*A 15 year old is not a child. The remark may have been crude and tasteless, but 15 year olds _have_ been known to have sex. \*\* Sure they have. Whether you call her a child or a minor, the truth is the same. She lacks the ability to have consentual sex with an adult. I could care less if she had packed her bags and waited for this freak to pick her up. He is the guilty one. She is the victim. Even if she stayed with him and was not brainwashed or threatened, he is guilty and she is the victim. I would have little if any different thoughts about the punishment he deserves if it was true that she willingly went and willingly stayed. He was the adult in this and should be held responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/73 "2003-03-16T11:43:13Z")
Also, if ES is as sheltered and naive as she appears to be, I can’t imagine that she would be discriminatory enough to think “This is really good bone; I’m staying.” If they did have intercourse, it was almost certainly something she simply endured. ---
**Author:** ![chris\_young](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@chris\_young](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chris_young)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/74 "2003-03-16T13:41:11Z")
from day one i thought the uncle was shady why didnt he consent to a lie detector ---
**Author:** ![papergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aca169/32.png) [@papergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/papergirl)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/75 "2003-03-16T14:36:24Z")
15 may not be quite a child, but I have known a lot of very naive 15 year olds who would not have the first idea what to do in a situation like this one. When I was 14, a stranger literally picked me up bodily and carried me off a crowded street in freaking Disneyworld, with holiday vacationers all around. No one attempted to stop him, and no one intervened when they saw us struggling. He kept me for hours, but I zoned out within the first half hour or so, and after that I was completely his. It does not take long to learn to be helpless, especially if you haven’t really been taught to fight or resist, and especially if any resistance you do put up is met with physical harm or threats to your life. She survived, and that’s an accomplishment. I’m worried about how she’s going to work through all of this; hopefully she will get some decent counseling. Re: the dad. I haven’t seen a lot of him, so maybe I’m missing his baseline creepiness. When I saw a recent press conference, though, he just struck me as someone who is very used to giving testimony in church. (I have no idea if that’s a practice in his church or not; my response is based on personal experience with other religions.) Those parents have to be operating from a state of total shock right now; I can’t imagine how I would react in a similar situation. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/76 "2003-03-16T15:24:40Z")
So we do know for sure that sex was involved? ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/77 "2003-03-16T15:31:53Z")
I’m NOT saying this is what the Smart’s have done…but would it be one hell of an easy way to make a few million bucks. ie: book deals and movie rights etc. HOW you say? Tell your teenage kid to hideout for as long as possible…maybe fabricate some elaborate abduction story. Let’s play a game. We’re going to walk around town in the open in disguise and see how long it takes someone to recognize us. anyway, it was just a thought BTW did anyone see any tears when dad was supposedly crying during his interview…he acted like he was crying, maybe he was just dried up/cried out whatever. Hopefully, it is/was just what it is supposed to be and she’ll be fine and the family will adjust and life will go on. The kidnapping bastard…damn good thing he’s not in Texas (for his own sake anyway) :mad: ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/78 "2003-03-16T15:44:07Z")
damn good thing he’s not in Texas (for his own sake anyway) Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/79 "2003-03-16T16:07:45Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** **Logical Phallacy** , that was uncalled for. Let’s try to keep this discussion on an un-jerkish level, right? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/80 "2003-03-16T16:39:34Z")
voyager: What exactly are you trying to same about Mormons and “conforming to their religion.” I was under the impression that most, if not all, religions had standards of conformity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234.md?page=5)