# Is there something odd about the Elizabeth Smart case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234 "2003-03-14T01:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/101 "2003-03-17T11:51:25Z")
Link to the pit thread [SDMB Assholes aka mass ignorance on the SDMB](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170325) started by **kp\_72110**. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/102 "2003-03-17T14:36:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wearywitch \* > \*\*😕 mmmmm… yeah, they are - they are the epitome there of. sorry. \*\* That’s a rather sweeping generalization about the Mormon faith, to put it mildly. Whatever you think about the Smarts, it’s not fair to categorize a whole religion that way (I am not Mormon, but I do object to calling people religious freaks because they are.) I don’t pretend to know what that family is going through, and I can’t pass judgement on any member for how they are or are not reacting to all of this. I think Mr. Smart is very happy to have his daughter back, and I commend him for using their inevitable publicity to push for a national Amber Alert. ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/103 "2003-03-17T14:37:24Z")
Beyond anything else, I think there’s something really _bizarre_ about the father, and I felt that way the minute I saw him talking on t.v. (this was before the harp incident) I can’t put my finger on it, but I couldn’t help wondering what he does for a living, he was incredibly creepy in manner, I couldn’t imagine anyone dealing with him. I’ve never had such a strong reaction to someone on t.v. By comparison his brother seemed normal, but the dad was just _so wrong_ somehow. Completely phoney and beyond. Scary. Coupled with the mysterious circumstances surrounding this kidnapping it makes me wonder what goes on in that house. (why did the kid sister wait 2 HOURS to report the kidnapping, being 9 doesn’t mean you’re mentally crippled) ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/104 "2003-03-17T15:23:24Z")
Oh for the last freaking time, **unless there is some uniform standard for demeanor and behavior of the parents of a child who was returned after a stranger abduction then how can you judge Mr. Smart as acting improperly?** None of us have any idea what’s going on in these people’s minds and hearts or what emotional storms are happening where they belong – in the privacy of their home, church, community and other behind-closed-doors sorts of places. We **simply do not know**. This wild speculation is insulting and pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/105 "2003-03-17T15:30:41Z")
Doonerak: Picture this: Provide some proof of your accusation against Mr. Smart _et al_ of the heinous crimes you just accused them of. Better yet: DON’T MAKE FALSE ACCUSATIONS! You have no proof, other than what you’ve decided is true without evidence. That is not proof. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/106 "2003-03-17T15:37:22Z")
One thing will not happen. A rape charge. That will be official confirmation of what we all suspect, therefore it will not happen. The Aggravated Kidnapping charge will be deemed to suffice. One thing will happen. A book/movie deal. The family enjoys the spotlight too much for this temptation to be resisted. You disagree? Consider this. Most normal families would have grudgingly consented to a press conference without the victim present and then shut the door to the media. Not these folks. The Amber alert advocacy is just the beginning of the “We are very special and deserve the attention” mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/107 "2003-03-17T16:50:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wearywitch \* > Hi. I live in a community in Arizona, primarily Mormon (LDS). Claim to authority, based merely on location, not actual knowledge. > [@](#): > > I have many acquaintences who are LDS, as a result. Claim to authority, based merely on acquaintanceship, not actual knowledge. > [@](#): > > I have inquired about their religion, and have found more often, than not, that there are “sacred rituals”, and “sacred (you fill in the blank)” that even the most devout Mormon follower knows nothing about (because they have not yet achieved the “enlightenment” to know of this ritual". False statement disguised as reporting of actual events. > [@](#): > > Is it not possible that Emmanuel told Elizabeth that he was instrumental in some capacity in her “ritual experience”? Speculation tossed in among false statement, thus an attempt to mislead the reader that the speculation has a basis in fact. > [@](#): > > She comes from a devout family. So what? > [@](#): > > Maybe she was told she was leaving with him to partake in a “spiritual initiation” - and from there she was putty in his hands. More speculation; said speculation that can only be based on a particular prejudice held by the person so speculating. > [@](#): > > She may have felt she was doing the “right thing” for her family and church if he held the “key words” to entice her. More speculation, thinly disguised. > [@](#): > > Just a thought. To call that posting of yours “thought” is laughable. It is the exact antithesis of thought. For your edification, I went to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) and fetched “antithesis” as the best alternative for the word “antonym.” Here is the full list of the words that site’s thesaurus provided. Feel free to select one or more of the other choices as being further descriptive of that so-called thoughtful posting. > [@](#): > > antithesis, antonym, blank, cancellation, contrary, converse, counterpart, denial, disavowal, disclaimer, fat chance, forget it, gainsaying, inverse, like hell, negatory, neutralization, nix, no sale, no way, nonexistence, nothingness, nullification, nullity, opposite, opposite, opposition, proscription, refusal, rejection, renunciation, repudiation, reverse, stonewall, vacuity, veto, void ---
**Author:** ![Banger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@Banger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banger)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/108 "2003-03-17T17:43:09Z")
**Monty** , try looking up “tact” 😛 You seem to be reading more into that post you parse than its poster intended, such as the alleged “claims to authority”. You’re on the right track with the speculation part, but by viewing the other statements as “claims to authority” you somehow feel that this speculation is being “disguised”, thinly at some times. Then you go into that “thought” rant, but most other posters here took that post for what it was: just some thoughts, and speculation based on a person’s limited experiences. ---
**Author:** ![deborak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc348/32.png) [@deborak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deborak)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/109 "2003-03-17T19:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Doonerak: > > Picture this: Provide some proof of your accusation against Mr. Smart _et al_ of the heinous crimes you just accused them of. > > Better yet: DON’T MAKE FALSE ACCUSATIONS! You have no proof, other than what you’ve decided is true without evidence. That is not proof. \*\* Well, I didn’t particularly like the line about Mr. Smart being a weird guy, but I read **Doonerak’s** post in a completely different light. Many people are asking why ES didn’t just run away or act out in public. Just like, in the cases of child abuse/molestation/etc., many people ask why the child/teen didn’t just _tell_ somebody. Yet it has been shown, time and time again, that the abuser/molester uses many psychological “tricks” to keep the abused silent…from coercion to intimidation to threats against the individual/family members/pets/you-name-it. And that makes sense to me, if I indeed read the post correctly. People are finding it suspicious that ES would actually _go out in public_ and never say a word. Yet, every day, thousands of kids are abused, by relatives and neighbors and teachers and strangers, and never say a word. (Yes, I realize the situation may be different, abuse vs. kidnapping, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the psychology behind ES keeping silent was not the same, especially if threats were made against her family that she believed.) Maybe I misinterpreted the post, but I didn’t read it as being an accusation against the Smart family as being abusive. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/110 "2003-03-17T20:34:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*_Thus, while no one is legally allowed to take her up on said consent, whether she is capable of giving it is (IMO, at least) entirely a different question._ > > Yeah, but there’s really no POINT to your point, is there?\*\* On the contrary, the POINT to my point was that it was this distinction to which **Mr2001** may have been referring, as was stated in my post. > [@](#): > > **If you’ve got something to say, say it, stop blathering about semantics.** I did, and I wasn’t. Innate ability to consent and legal permission are two different things. Dismissing that point as “blathering about semantics” smacks of rationalizing a desire to ignore the distinction. > [@](#): > > \*\* My suspicion is that you are at some level seeking to establish that Smart was responsible for her own kidnaping, saying that she could have voluntarily left with her kidnaper, something she planned from the beginning.\*\* I can think of no reason to do such a thing, nor have I made any attempt to do so. Establishing what actually happened is not my job; and further, I am in no position to find out. Whoever has controlled this situation is who has been responsible for it. I personally doubt if that person has _ever_ been Elizabeth. Your suspicions of my intentions, by the way, are as irrelevant and unfounded as my suspicions of your intentions would be if I bothered to develop any…which I haven’t, as they would be irrelevant and unfounded. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It is possible that this is the case, but given the facts, it’s > very > very > very > improbable. \*\* Then we’re agreed. I’m not sure what you’re attempting to argue with me about. Perhaps my post was insufficiently clear. > [@](#): > > \*\*And you have to wonder about the motivations of anyone who is so ready to make this very improbable point with so little evidence to back it up. \*\* The point I made was not improbable, and my motives were clearly stated: > [@](#): > > \*(By **Me** Re: **Mr2001’s** post) > > As he pointed out, she lacks the legal right to consent to sex. Whether she has the capability to do so is another question which we aren’t really in a position to factually answer. That was the distinction I thought he was making.\* I’m not sure what is unclear about that. > [@](#): > > **Maybe evidence will come forth that will make your point. I am not holding my breath, and I advise not to hold yours.** Well, it seems to me that the evidence of _my_ point is pretty clearly given in this thread. But advice is always useful. Since you were kind enough to dispense your own, perhaps I could return the favor: Your criticisms of the motivations of others will carry more weight if said motivations are not fabricated by you. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/111 "2003-03-17T21:04:11Z")
WOW. The assumptions and judgmental attitudes in this thread is sickening. I’ll keep my comments over in the Pit thread to avoid a spanking by a moderator. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/112 "2003-03-17T21:48:20Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** **kp\_72110** you evidently know _how_ to open a Pit thread, and you evidently know what goes in the Pit and what goes in Great Debates, so what’s your excuse? If you are so moved by the topic that all you can post about it are flames it’s very simple–DON’T POST IN GREAT DEBATES! ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/113 "2003-03-17T23:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by yosemitebabe_ > **She was carried away at knifepoint and her little sister was threatened at the time of her abduction. Do you still feel that a (probably sheltered) 15-year-old Mormon girl could still give full consent (to her abductor) under these circumstances?** It’s highly unlikely, I’ll give you that. > [@](#): > > **And doesn’t it seem more likely that when Elizabeth said “the girl who ran away” she was merely repeating what her abductor kept on telling her?** Could be. _Is_ that what the abductor was telling her, or are you making an assumption? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jacksen9 \* > \*\*Are you saying that it is ok for a 40 year old to have sex with a 15 year old if the 15 year old is willing? If so…ugh, I think that is twisted. If not please forgive me for implying so. \*\* Whether a particular person is able to give informed consent depends on his knowledge and emotional maturity, not his age. But this is really a topic for another thread - feel free to start one if you want to discuss this further. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/114 "2003-03-17T23:43:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _I have inquired about their religion, and have found more often, than not, that there are “sacred rituals”, and “sacred (you fill in the blank)” that even the most devout Mormon follower knows nothing about (because they have not yet achieved the “enlightenment” to know of this ritual"._ So you, a non-Mormon and complete outsider, have knowledge of secret rituals within the Mormon church that most Mormons are completely unaware of? And you got this knowledge by asking, and no other Mormons ever do the same? [Bullcrap detector]beepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeep[/Bullcrap detector] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/115 "2003-03-17T23:54:54Z")
**Mr.2001** > [@](#): > > Whether a particular person is able to give informed consent depends on his knowledge and emotional maturity, not his age. But this is really a topic for another thread - feel free to start one if you want to discuss this further. No thanks. I will merely stand by what I already posted. Informed consent, emotional maturity, knowledge… blah, blah, blah. Whatever… this is a kid. Would you want your 15 year old, emotionally mature, and knowledgeable daughter to engage in sexual activity of any kind with a 40 year old? ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/116 "2003-03-17T23:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jacksen9 \* > **I could care less if she had packed her bags and waited for this freak to pick her up. He is the guilty one. She is the victim. Even if she stayed with him and was not brainwashed or threatened, he is guilty and she is the victim.** I agree 100% with **Jacksen.** The kidnapper and his wife bear full responsibility for this, and no blame should be attached to Elizabeth, even if she begged to be kidnapped (not that I think she did). She isn’t the adult in this situation. And I think it _will_ be interesting when the full story comes out, as I don’t believe we have all the details yet. I’m not going to judge anybody’s immediate behaviour, either. A kidnapped child has returned after 9 months, who knows how they’d react under those conditions ? Give them a decent amount of time to adjust and sort themselves out. And the Mormon-bashing in this thread disgusts me. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![wearywitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@wearywitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wearywitch)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/117 "2003-03-18T00:55:22Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Shodan \* \*\*So you, a non-Mormon and complete outsider, have knowledge of secret rituals within the Mormon church that most Mormons are completely unaware of? And you got this knowledge by asking, and no other Mormons ever do the same? No, Shodan, I do not have “knowledge” of what occurs during sacred rituals. My point is/was: I have asked my LDS friends, because I was curious and they do not yet know. They are quite open to sharing their faith / belief system, especially if asked. Further - what did I say, exactly, to make you so sure that I am a complete outsider? A non-mormon yes. I think you and “Monty” read way too much into my post, and misunderstood the “point”. I will work on my writing and grammarical skills and try to make it more clear for you. Evidently “simple” is better. Let me clear up one other point made while I’m here. “Religious Freak” - okay let’s say “Religious Fanatic”, or “Fanatically Religious”. Was it the word “freak” that offended? Maybe these terms will make it feel better. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/118 "2003-03-18T01:11:11Z")
I used to be a catholic. The RCC has at least a few secret rituals of their own. Maybe not deep, dark secret, as in “Now I have to kill you”, but rituals certainly not open to the masses. A couple that pop into my mind; [ul] [li]Choosing a new pope.[/li][li]Making a saint.[/li][li]Exorcism, the biggy.[/li]and [li]Changing the rules.[/li][/ul] In other words, rituals ain’t no big thing. And the Mormons do got 'em. 🙂 Ask a Mormon, if you don’t believe it. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/119 "2003-03-18T01:33:22Z")
**Banger** “appeal to authority” is a classic logical fallacy. You should probably [read up on it](http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.htm) as it accurately describes **wearywitch** ’s post. > [@](#): > > **wearywitch** wrote: > I have inquired about their religion, and have found more often, than not, that there are “sacred rituals”, and “sacred (you fill in the blank)” that even the most devout Mormon follower knows nothing about (because they have not yet achieved the “enlightenment” to know of this ritual". Is it not possible that Emmanuel told Elizabeth that he was instrumental in some capacity in her “ritual experience”? She comes from a devout family. Maybe she was told she was leaving with him to partake in a “spiritual initiation” If you knew anything about the LDS, you would know that any rituals that are sacred are not unknown to “the most devout Mormon follower.” Indeed, if it were unknown, how would you have found out about it? Additionally, all LDS are taught about limited stewardship–that no one has a right to revelation or inspired counsel for anyone not in his responsibility. That is, a Bishop has no right to receive inspired counsel for someone not in the congregation he leads. A father (or mother) has the right to revelation for his family, but not for another, etc. This is spelled out over and over again. A nutjob homeless guy who breaks into your house and takes you away at knifepoint has no right to anything pertaining to you (well, that one really isn’t in the lesson manuals). Your suggestion is absurd (indeed, it borders on the “aluminum hat” style of conspiracy), and Monty dismissed it rightfully. And **Banger** perhaps you should advise **wearywitch** to learn about tact as well. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234/120 "2003-03-18T01:48:08Z")
I’m not the one making baseless accusations against the Smart family, nor am I the one making prejudicial (not to mention ridiculous) comments about the LDS church. Perhaps the individuals do doing, as Shodan and Goo so eloquently indicated, are the ones in need of tact edification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-something-odd-about-the-elizabeth-smart-case/161234.md?page=7)