# Is there such a biological thing as a racial group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007 "2011-04-03T03:39:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/401 "2011-04-08T01:43:54Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s so darn cute the way he does this.😃 > So far according to Chuck: > _Race = ancestral group_ > Race = subspecies > _Race = ancestry_ > _race = clade_ > It appears according to Chuck that race = anything but race. Or perhaps I should say that Chuck wants race to be equivalent to those things so that he can then claim that race has some sort of biological existence. To clarity: Chuck has never defined race as subspecies. Chuck argues that that’s a red herring. Chuck defines race as clade. As Blake knows clades are defined by ancestry-descendancy; they are ancestral groups. Given Blake’s stipulations of what race must entail —1) patterns of phenotypic differences and 2) a relation to the ordinary concept (i.e social concept) of race – Chuck points out that the clades that qualify as races roughly overlap with Cavalli-Sforza’s population clusters, which overlap with regionally branches (i.e regional ancestry). So we have: race = clades with noticeable patterns of phenotypic differences = major population cluster = regional ancestry = ~the ordinary concept of race. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/402 "2011-04-08T01:44:25Z")
Chuck when you can answer the questions that you promised to answer, it might be amusing to engage you again. At this stage you have so thoroughly discredited yourself, so thoroughly shown that you are incapable of accurately present references, so thoroughly demonstrated that you do not understand this subject, that there is really little point. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/403 "2011-04-08T01:51:38Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Huh? Ethiopians and Aborigines don’t even look alike. The both have dark skin; that’s enough for a lot of people. And if you were to compare populations in Africa you’d find major differences in appearance as well that tend to get glossed over. The diversity of appearance within Africa is as wide as the difference between Ethiopians and Aborigines. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/404 "2011-04-08T02:04:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Funny, the dubious was to underline the now obvious “method” that you have to ignore the conclusions of the reports when some line seems to fit your ideas or agenda. It does not work that way. So you now accept that you were incorrect to say _" two random Koreans may be as genetically different as a Korean and an Italian"_? This is important, because your comment seemed to be an example of the [Lewontin fallacy](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html). Something that was pointed out in the same year as the PBS documentary you cited. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/405 "2011-04-08T02:09:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And yet, that abstract explicitly notes:Hardly a big show of support for proclaiming “race” to be an objective reality. I already addressed this issue. As I noted, Cavalli-Sforza et al were discussing sub-species. I am not debating whether races are subspecies. Cavalli-Sforza (elsewhere) and other do recognize “population clusters” that correspond to “races”: “By means of painstaking multivariate analysis, we can identify “clusters” of populations and order them in a hierarchy that we believe represents the history of fissions in the expansion to the whole world of anatomically modern humans. At no level can clusters be identified with races, since every level of clustering would determine a different partition and there is no biological reason to prefer a particular one. The successive levels of clustering follow each other in a regular sequence, and there is no discontinuity that might tempt us to consider a certain level as a reasonable, though arbitrary, threshold for race distinction.” They do not consider these “races” [i.e subspecies], because they argue that there are no major discontinuities – they conclude that there is no non-arbitrary means of deciding which level of population clusters to talk about. Above, I used Blake’s arbitrary standards (which he imposed on my race qua clade definition) to circumvent this problem. (Personally, I’m fine with an understanding of multiple levels of race). ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/406 "2011-04-08T02:11:24Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The both have dark skin; that’s enough for a lot of people. And if you were to compare populations in Africa you’d find major differences in appearance as well that tend to get glossed over. The diversity of appearance within Africa is as wide as the difference between Ethiopians and Aborigines. This debate is about whether there is a biological thing as a racial group. The [biological definition](http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Race) does not rely on a single trait. > [@](#): > > Race > Definition > > noun > > (1) A group or population of humans categorized on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics (such as color of skin, eyes, and hair). > > (2) A descent from a common heritage, ancestor, breed or stock. > > (3) A tribe or family of people sharing a common breed or lineage. > > (4) A population of interbreeding species that develops distinct characteristics differing from other populations of the same species, especially as caused by geographical isolation. > > (5) (botany) > (a) A variety of distinct character that may be propagated by seed. > (b) A rhizome, especially of ginger. > (6) (zoology) A breed or strain of domesticated animal. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/407 "2011-04-08T02:15:45Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > This debate is about whether there is a biological thing as a racial group. The [biological definition](http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Race) does not rely on a single trait. So, name me the traits that apply to the race that Aborigines belong to. Oh, and I noticed that you left out this bit at the bottom of the page you linked to: > [@](#): > > Humans have been categorized into many distinct varieties or races. One of the most common (and an old) subcategorization of human species is the five human races by Blumenbach: the Caucasian (white race), Mongolian (yellow race), Ethiopian (negro race), American (red race), and the Malayan (brown race). At present, such classification is disputed to have no biological validity. The biological context of the term race is only widely accepted when used to refer to a subspecies arising from a partially isolated reproductive population and thus share a considerable degree of genetic similarity. An example is the African wildcat, which is a subspecies of the domesticated cat. We’ve already established that humans haven’t been reproductively isolated in a significant sense, so that wouldn’t seem to fit. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/408 "2011-04-08T02:20:49Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Huh? Ethiopians and Aborigines don’t even look alike. Really? Then you can tell me how these people differ in appearance. [1](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EC8X5fx4MOo/TT9kA5dBdII/AAAAAAAAEWc/26815cngJM8/s1600/proud%2Baboriginal%2Bman.jpg) [2](http://www.cairn.info/loadimg.php?FILE=CEA/CEA_196/CEA_196_0893/fullCEA_id9782713222092_pu2009-04s_pa01-da06_art02_img008.jpg) [3](http://chora.virtualave.net/ethiopian-girl.jpg) [4](http://www.bwm.org.au/images/John_Brooks.jpg) [5](http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_let6purSwC1qbsvn3o1_500.jpg) [6](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/2544733672_aa158f6fb4.jpg) [7](http://www.garyradler.com/Street-Scenes/Indigenous-Australians-Images/PEO0569/784493583_vALtB-M-8.jpg) [8](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3577/3317899864_b2f1cc8ee9.jpg) [9](http://www.mountgambierrsl.com.au/bugler.jpg) [10](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6izHM7-NzcQ/S6_P1JLMrbI/AAAAAAAAAo8/Dr1og14ZP6s/s1600/menelik+%281%29.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/409 "2011-04-08T02:21:31Z")
> [@Clark\_K](#): > > Welcome back. If you’re going to stick around, how about responding to my request that you clarify the debate a bit by listing the races that you believe exist? That would give us an assertion to examine. Depends what you mean by “races” and “exist”. I mean, obviously the “black” race “exists” in the sense that people every day say “hey, that guy is black” and “hey, that guy isn’t black”, and different people will often (although not always) think the same guys are or not black. The claim I’m making is that in the general act of sorting people into races, which so many people do all the time, and which is: (a) originally motivated by social/historical as opposed to biological factors (b) impossible to concretely come up with rules for… it’s a “I know one when I see one” (c) generally a dangerous thing that we’d be far better off if people did vastly less often will tend to come up with groupings which are not agnostic to biology. That is, if you examine the groupings that result there will be, on the average, shorter genetic distances between the people grouped into the same race than if you just picked equivalent sized groups out of the world’s population at random. These groupings, however, will be far inferior, less accurate, than similar groupings arranged by actual biology/history/sociology/whatever. I do not endorse using these racial groupings in the actual study of biology. Nor do I claim that races are DEFINED biologically, or that there is ever a single trait that everyone in a race has. Oh, and one other thing that is “biological” about this is that unlike many other ways one might arrange people into groups – Christian vs non, smoker vs non, marathon runner vs non – these racial groupings will often (usually?) be passed on genetically to one’s children, even if those children are raised by a hypothetical skinnerian box. (Also note, btw, that in different contexts the word “race” means all sorts of different things… in common US parlance, for instance, it tends to refer to large somewhat-arbitrary groupings of populations, but can also refer to much smaller populations in contexts where that is relevant. Most random Americans, when asked to list races, wouldn’t immediately list “native Hawaiian” as one of them, but someone living on Hawaii, when discussing relations between native Hawaiians and others, might well view that as a racial issue…) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/410 "2011-04-08T02:23:41Z")
Oh good, Chen is posting right now. Chen has said that [Pacific Islander and East Asian are two of the races](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13651100&postcount=174). Chen has now said that can races plainly be categorized on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics such as color of skin, eyes, and hair. Well, if they plainly can then **tell us which sets of heritable characteristics such as color of skin, eyes, and hair allow you to categorise your Pacific Islander and East Asian races.** We have asked you to do this 12 times so far. And you always weasel away form it. Since you are now explicitly claiming that humans can clearly be categorized on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics such as color of skin, eyes, and hair, the time has come for you to do so. You have made the explicit claim in GD that you are able to do something. So now lets see you do it. And everybody remember, Chen’s Pacific Islander race encompasses Polynesians, a population that not infrequently has red hair, along with Mongoloid Indonesians, Singaporeans Australian Aborigines and New Guinean Melanesians. Chen has now painted himself into a corner. Watching him try to weasel out of this should be good. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/411 "2011-04-08T02:29:04Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > So you now accept that you were incorrect to say _" two random Koreans may be as genetically different as a Korean and an Italian"_? This is important, because your comment seemed to be an example of the [Lewontin fallacy](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html). Something that was pointed out in the same year as the PBS documentary you cited. He is not a Biologist. There is no mention of Race in the paper he cites and the paper deals with medical and forensic applications. Once again, a clarification that he himself offers: > [@](#): > > There is no strong evidence yet for specific gene variants (alleles) that lead to group differences (differences between clusters) in behavior or intelligence, but progress on the genomic side of this question will be rapid in coming years, as the price to sequence a genome is dropping at an exponential rate. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/412 "2011-04-08T02:29:57Z")
And yet again Max has point-blank refused to answer the question. If the position he and Chen espouse had any validity at all they would not need to adopt these weasel tactics. If race had any objective existence then they would be able to readily list the races and tell us what characteristics separate them. The fact that they have been repeatedly asked to do so and repeatedly refused really says it all. These two are not arguing in good faith. They keep saying that race clearly has an objective meaning, and yet they have been unable to name even a single race and the characteristics of that race. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/413 "2011-04-08T02:30:06Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > So, name me the traits that apply to the race that Aborigines belong to. > > Oh, and I noticed that you left out this bit at the bottom of the page you linked to: Yeah, the supplement indicates it is disputed which is a truism. But the definition clearly does not relate to a single trait like skin colour. That is a strawman you have created. > [@Telemark](#): > > We’ve already established that humans haven’t been reproductively isolated in a significant sense, so that wouldn’t seem to fit.[/ Where have we established that? I posted [previously](http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsb025007) with some rather obvious examples that suggest [otherwise](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13663200&postcount=393). Also, I’d say that you are unaware of recent evidence showing that genetic changes accelerated over the past [10,000 years.](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html#) > [@](#): > > What seems to be true (from preliminary studies) is that the gene variants that were under strong selection (reached fixation) over the last 10k years are different in different clusters. That is, the way that modern people in each cluster differ, due to natural selection, from their own ancestors 10k years ago is not the same in each cluster – we have been, at least at the genetic level, experiencing divergent evolution. > > In fact, recent research suggests that 7% or more of all our genes are mutant versions that replaced earlier variants through natural selection over the last tens of thousands of years. There was little gene flow between continental clusters (“races”) during that period, so there is circumstantial evidence for group differences beyond the already established ones (superficial appearance, disease resistance). ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/414 "2011-04-08T02:32:21Z")
Oh good, Chen is posting right now. Chen has said that [Pacific Islander and East Asian are two of the races](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13651100&postcount=174). Chen has now said that can races plainly be categorized on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics such as color of skin, eyes, and hair. Well, if they plainly can then **tell us which sets of heritable characteristics such as color of skin, eyes, and hair allow you to categorise your Pacific Islander and East Asian races.** We have asked you to do this 12 times so far. And you always weasel away form it. Since you are now explicitly claiming that humans can clearly be categorized on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics such as color of skin, eyes, and hair, the time has come for you to do so. You have made the explicit claim in GD that you are able to do something. So now lets see you do it. And everybody remember, Chen’s Pacific Islander race encompasses Polynesians, a population that not infrequently has red hair, along with Mongoloid Indonesians, Singaporeans Australian Aborigines and New Guinean Melanesians. Chen has now painted himself into a corner. Watching him try to weasel out of this should be good. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/415 "2011-04-08T02:35:51Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > So, name me the traits that apply to the race that Aborigines belong to. We’ve already established that humans haven’t been reproductively isolated in a significant sense, so that wouldn’t seem to fit. Aborigines belong to a specific population. That’s what defines their relation to each other. Their relation is not defined in terms of their traits. Rather, their traits are a mark of their relative difference form other populations (i.e the unique selective pressures acting on this lineage + genetic drift). What unique traits does the Aborigineal population manifest? As opposed to which other populations? Relative to Europeans, Aborigines are darkly pigmented. Relative to darkly pigmented West Africans, they have different cranial structures. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/416 "2011-04-08T02:42:02Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yeah, the supplement indicates it is disputed which is a truism. But the definition clearly does not relate to a single trait like skin colour. That is a strawman you have created. > > Where have we established that? I posted [previously](http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsb025007) with some rather obvious examples that suggest [otherwise](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13663200&postcount=393). > > Also, I’d say that you are unaware of recent evidence showing that genetic changes accelerated over the past [10,000 years.](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html#) As always, something is ignored on the way to make a point: > [@](#): > > But Harpending believes the speedup in human evolution “is a temporary state of affairs because of our new environments since the dispersal of modern humans 40,000 years ago and especially since the invention of agriculture 12,000 years ago. That changed our diet and changed our social systems. If you suddenly take hunter-gatherers and give them a diet of corn, they frequently get diabetes. We’re still adapting to that. Several new genes we see spreading through the population are involved with helping us prosper with high-carbohydrate diet.” ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/417 "2011-04-08T02:43:59Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Really? Then you can tell me how these people differ in appearance. > > [1](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EC8X5fx4MOo/TT9kA5dBdII/AAAAAAAAEWc/26815cngJM8/s1600/proud%2Baboriginal%2Bman.jpg) > [2](http://www.cairn.info/loadimg.php?FILE=CEA/CEA_196/CEA_196_0893/fullCEA_id9782713222092_pu2009-04s_pa01-da06_art02_img008.jpg) > [3](http://chora.virtualave.net/ethiopian-girl.jpg) > [4](http://www.bwm.org.au/images/John_Brooks.jpg) > [5](http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_let6purSwC1qbsvn3o1_500.jpg) > [6](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/2544733672_aa158f6fb4.jpg) > [7](http://www.garyradler.com/Street-Scenes/Indigenous-Australians-Images/PEO0569/784493583_vALtB-M-8.jpg) > [8](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3577/3317899864_b2f1cc8ee9.jpg) > [9](http://www.mountgambierrsl.com.au/bugler.jpg) > [10](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6izHM7-NzcQ/S6_P1JLMrbI/AAAAAAAAAo8/Dr1og14ZP6s/s1600/menelik+%281%29.jpg) Some look like East Africans, others like Australian Aborigines. It is pretty clear in most of the pics, some of the pics aren’t that good. The first and second pics are good stereotypical examples of each. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/418 "2011-04-08T02:49:41Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Chuck when you can answer the questions that you promised to answer, it might be amusing to engage you again. You refuse to list the questions. How am I supposed to answer them? I already gave you my definition, cited others who also use it, listed the clades that would qualify as races based on your stipulations, ect. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/419 "2011-04-08T02:49:52Z")
> [@Chuck11](#): > > I already addressed this issue. As I noted, Cavalli-Sforza et al were discussing sub-species. I am not debating whether races are subspecies. So, you’re just making up your own definitions, now? In biological nomenclature, race and subspecies have been equivalent terms for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/420 "2011-04-08T02:59:57Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Some look like East Africans, others like Australian Aborigines. It is pretty clear in most of the pics, some of the pics aren’t that good. The first and second pics are good stereotypical examples of each. Which is simply restating your contention that they look different. But your are clearly incapable of telling us how they look different. You simply keep asserting \*that \*they look different without being able to demonstrate that they in fact do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007.md?page=22)