# Is there such a biological thing as a racial group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007 "2011-04-03T03:39:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/81 "2011-04-03T23:17:46Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s like asking a scientist who studies light how many colors there are, where the boundaries are between them, and why one way to count colors is better than another. There are obviously a really large number of colors… but it’s very useful to talk about “red things”, rather than talking about stopsign-colored-things and my-blood-colored-things and your-blood-colored-things, etc. And of course sometimes it’s NOT useful to talk about red things… I’m sure that fashion designers would sneer if I misidentified crimson as red, or what have you. That doesn’t make “red” a meaningless concept, or even an arbitrary concept. (That is, it’s somewhat arbitrary what boundaries we put around red, but all of the shades that we call red are related to each other in a scientifically describable way.) But we’re talking science here, and there is not scientific definition of the color red that isn’t arbitrarily drawn. Color is a social construct, and it’s useful in that sense. Race is the same. It works as a social construct, but not so much as a scientific one. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/82 "2011-04-03T23:18:46Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > If you want to use that criteria, then that would still work: > > [http://www.goodrumj.com/RFaqHTML.html](http://www.goodrumj.com/RFaqHTML.html) I looked at the people citing the paper, Google Scholar just reports 2 citations, I would have to say that it was discouraging to see a neo nazi site recommending that article among the first links in the regular Google. But later on 2003 Scientific American came with the Race issue and the overall conclusion from the experts was: > **[Does Race Exist?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-race-exist/)** > > If races are defined as genetically discrete groups, no. But researchers can use some genetic information to group individuals into clusters with medical relevance > [@](#): > > Does Race Exist? > If races are defined as genetically discrete groups, no. But researchers can use some genetic information to group individuals into clusters with medical relevance ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/83 "2011-04-03T23:19:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Almost, but not quite. It takes time for a population isolate to evolve distinct morphological differences…Plus, the morphological differences you see just aren’t that great between the populations you mention and other populations. Nonetheless, forensic anthropologists can accurately identify a persons race looking at their skeleton and cranium. [http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/getfile.php?file=Race.pdf](http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/getfile.php?file=Race.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/84 "2011-04-03T23:21:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I looked at the people citing the paper, Google Scholar just reports 2 citations, I would have to say that it was discouraging to see a neo nazi site recommending that article among the first links in the regular Google. > > But later on 2003 Scientific American came with the Race issue and the overall conclusion from the experts was: > > [Does Race Exist? | Scientific American](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-race-exist) Which is entirely consistent with what I’ve said above. These are biological categories, they’re not fixed, discrete categories like makes of car. Go back and look at the biological definition above. Also, I’d recommend Sesardic’s paper (in my post above) which addresses these strawmen arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/85 "2011-04-03T23:21:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But we’re talking science here, and there is not scientific definition of the color red that isn’t arbitrarily drawn. Color is a social construct, and it’s useful in that sense. Race is the same. It works as a social construct, but not so much as a scientific one. You seem confused about what “science” means. It’s really just a process–i.e., the scientific method. You can use the scientific method to discover things based on subjective categories that you assign things to. There’s nothing that’s “not science” about that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/86 "2011-04-03T23:26:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Just because “race” is a subjective category doesn’t make it “a social construct” as opposed to something that exists “in biology.” It’s a subjective category based on biological factors, so it “exists in biology.” > > Also, it’s perfectly OK for different people to use a different number of races. That doesn’t make the race concept useless or something that doesn’t exist in biology. Science is not subjective. We don’t say: It’s OK if different chemists use different elements to describe the world. Science uses facts to test hypothesis. If you want to state the hypothesis that races exist, you have to test that against the facts. And the facts can’t be subjective, otherwise we have no way of arriving at the correct conclusion. Now, we might use science to test our own propensity to divide people into races, but that’s not the same thing as scientifically dividing people into races. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/87 "2011-04-03T23:31:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Science is not subjective. We don’t say: It’s OK if different chemists use different elements to describe the world. Science uses facts to test hypothesis. If you want to state the hypothesis that races exist, you have to test that against the facts. And the facts can’t be subjective, otherwise we have no way of arriving at the correct conclusion. > > Now, we might use science to test our own propensity to divide people into races, but that’s not the same thing as scientifically dividing people into races. A person can create subjective categories and assign people to those categories based on objective factors, and can then perform research (using the scientific method) on people in each category and see if they have other similarities or differences. There’s nothing about that that is “not science” or “unscientific.” Other people can review the work and say “the categories you created were stupid” or “you should have assigned people to your categories differently” or whatever, and that’s fine too. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/88 "2011-04-03T23:34:21Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Which is entirely consistent with what I’ve said above. These are biological categories, they’re not fixed, discrete categories like makes of car. Go back and look at the biological definition above. Also, I’d recommend Sesardic’s paper (in my post above) which addresses these strawmen arguments. Uh, if it is entirely consistent with what you said above, then why it is a straw men argument? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/89 "2011-04-03T23:34:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Science is not subjective. We don’t say: It’s OK if different chemists use different elements to describe the world. Science uses facts to test hypothesis. If you want to state the hypothesis that races exist, you have to test that against the facts. And the facts can’t be subjective, otherwise we have no way of arriving at the correct conclusion. > > Now, we might use science to test our own propensity to divide people into races, but that’s not the same thing as scientifically dividing people into races. So only things like physics and maths are scientific? What about science that deals with the natural world. Natural science involves subjective ideas & criteria as I mentioned above. btw. I posted a couple of responses to your comment about morphology above. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/90 "2011-04-03T23:36:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > A person can create subjective categories and assign people to those categories based on objective factors, and can then perform research (using the scientific method) on people in each category and see if they have other similarities or differences. There’s nothing about that that is “not science” or “unscientific.” Other people can review the work and say “the categories you created were stupid” or “you should have assigned people to your categories differently” or whatever, and that’s fine too. And when no one can agree on what those categories are, then we rightly conclude that the categories themselves are meaningless. It’s not for lack of trying that we conclude that biological races don’t exist. It’s precisely the act of trying, and never succeeding, that forces us to conclude that they don’t. It’s funny, though, that all the people in this thread who claim that races exist can never tell us what the races are. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/91 "2011-04-03T23:36:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, if it is entirely consistent with what you said above, then why it is a straw men argument? Because people who say there are races aren’t arguing they are fixed discrete categories. Please read the Sesardic paper for a fuller discussion. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/92 "2011-04-03T23:37:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > A person can create subjective categories and assign people to those categories based on objective factors, and can then perform research (using the scientific method) on people in each category and see if they have other similarities or differences. There’s nothing about that that is “not science” or “unscientific.” Other people can review the work and say “the categories you created were stupid” or “you should have assigned people to your categories differently” or whatever, and that’s fine too. I think that is fine too, what I have found is that the discussion is still ongoing, but the current consensus is that biologically speaking there are no races. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/93 "2011-04-03T23:41:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And when no one can agree on what those categories are, then we rightly conclude that the categories themselves are meaningless. > > It’s not for lack of trying that we conclude that biological races don’t exist. It’s precisely the act of trying, and never succeeding, that forces us to conclude that they don’t. > > It’s funny, though, that all the people in this thread who claim that races exist can never tell us what the races are. Can you? I can only conclude at this point that you are willfully missing the point. The idea of a “race” is subjective, and that’s OK, it doesn’t mean the idea is “not science” or “only a social construct and not biological.” One can create as many races as they want to. Other people can then ask why not one less or one more. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/94 "2011-04-03T23:42:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And when no one can agree on what those categories are, then we rightly conclude that the categories themselves are meaningless. How many cultures are there? Does culture not exist? When does someone become bald? Is it meaningless to refer to bald people? When is someone healthy? The fact that continuous variables doesn’t mean there are no useful or meaningful categories. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/95 "2011-04-03T23:44:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I think that is fine too, what I have found is that the discussion is still ongoing, but the current consensus is that biologically speaking there are no races. Nonetheless, forensic anthropologists can identify them 🙂 Population geneticists identify clusters that correspond to these non-existent races. I suppose humans are unlike other animals, there are no varieties or sub-groups. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/96 "2011-04-03T23:45:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s funny, though, that all the people in this thread who claim that races exist can never tell us what the races are. Can you? Bingo. What are “the races” and how are they demarcated? Simple. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/97 "2011-04-03T23:45:58Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > So only things like physics and maths are scientific? What about science that deals with the natural world. Natural science involves subjective ideas & criteria as I mentioned above. No. Only those things that can be measured and that are repeatable. > [@](#): > > btw. I posted a couple of responses to your comment about morphology above. Antiquated nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/98 "2011-04-03T23:49:18Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Bingo. What are “the races” and how are they demarcated? Simple. orcenio, read through this thread. Your question has been answered repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/99 "2011-04-03T23:51:38Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > How many cultures are there? Does culture not exist? When does someone become bald? Is it meaningless to refer to bald people? When is someone healthy? The fact that continuous variables doesn’t mean there are no useful or meaningful categories. So “the races” are literally a random group that you choose whenever, for whatever reason, using only the logic contained in your own mind. Nope. Name the groups. Name the amount. Name your logic in grouping them. Go. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007/100 "2011-04-03T23:53:35Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > orcenio, read through this thread. Your question has been answered repeatedly. A lot of bunk has been claimed, I’m not going to spend time to debunk them all. You quote/choose something now and stand by it. You’ll get a response. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-biological-thing-as-a-racial-group/577007.md?page=6)