# Is there such a thing as a just war? If yes, can you name one? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 5, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609 "2014-02-05T22:12:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/1 "2014-02-05T22:12:18Z")
I was going to begin by listing a set of criteria for "just war."But checking several sources online I found several different definitions, and I don’t wish to choke discussion by holding anyone to a definition they can’t support when they might have been able to support a different one. Thus I’ll just ask some questions and let hte chips fall where they may: 1. Is there such a thing as a just war in theory, even if not in practice? 2. Are there any conflicts in recorded history, now concluded, which you would say qualify as a just war? 3. Are there any conflicts currently being waged which you would call a just war? Poll in a moment, but don’t let that slow you down. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/2 "2014-02-05T22:15:47Z")
Are you talking about the initial attackers, and not those defending themselves from said attackers? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/3 "2014-02-05T22:17:27Z")
The first Barbary war? First war the USA ever fought, and they were totally justified. > **[First Barbary War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War)** > > Peace treaty > The First Barbary War (1801–1805), also known as the Tripolitan War and the Barbary Coast War, was a conflict during the 1801–1815 Barbary Wars, in which the United States fought against Ottoman Tripolitania. Tripolitania had declared war against the United States over disputes regarding tributary payments in exchange for a cessation of Tripolitanian commerce raiding at sea. United States President Thomas Jefferson refused to pay this tribute. The First Barbary War was the first m... > [@](#): > > The First Barbary War (1801–1805), also known as the Tripolitan War or the Barbary Coast War, was the first of two wars fought between the United States and the Northwest African Berber Muslim states known collectively as the Barbary States, nominally under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.[1] These were Tripoli, Algiers, and Tunis, which were quasi-independent entities nominally belonging to the Ottoman Empire, and the independent Sultanate of Morocco. The war was fought because U.S. President Thomas Jefferson refused to pay the high tributes demanded by the Barbary states and because they were seizing American merchant ships and enslaving the crews for high ransoms. It was the first declared war the United States fought on foreign land and seas. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/4 "2014-02-05T22:22:19Z")
The American Revolution. I read a book titled _They Never Said It,_ in which someone is supposed to have claimed that the American Civil War was fought to rid the United States of Jewish bankers. (!!) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/5 "2014-02-05T22:29:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you talking about the initial attackers, and not those defending themselves from said attackers? To your own judgment be it. I know at least one person in the real world who’d say that war cannot be just even in self-defense, and another who’d name several real-life conflicts in which the attackers were just in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/6 "2014-02-05T22:38:02Z")
Pretty much every war was “just” in the opinion of at least one participant, or else they wouldn’t bother to start it. Which makes “self-defense” the justification of the other participant. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/7 "2014-02-05T22:38:39Z")
Yes, there is. Peru in the “Pacific War” (1879-83) defending against Chilean attack. Perú, Bolivia, and Chile against Spain (1865-66). The Tumbes people of Puna Island against the Incas (1530) East Timorese against the remnants of the Indonesian Army. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/8 "2014-02-05T22:39:01Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Pretty much every war was “just” in the opinion of at least one participant, or else they wouldn’t bother to start it. > > Which makes “self-defense” the justification of the other participant. I’m asking for YOUR opinion, not the opinions of the participants. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/9 "2014-02-05T22:46:07Z")
The US entering WWII following the attack on Pearl Harbor. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/10 "2014-02-05T22:51:51Z")
I don’t believe there is any such a thing as a just war, but I do believe that in any war, one side was more just than the other. Usually the defending team is in the right, but not always (the Barbary War is a good example, the US started the war and we were right to do so). ---
**Author:** ![Athabasca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Athabasca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athabasca)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/11 "2014-02-05T22:58:13Z")
…the decision of Russian soldiers in WWII to desert Zhukov’s army and join the German Sixth army, to then wage war against the injustice of Stalin’s military policy was and remains a just cause. Whether you see this in the greater context of WWII, or Operation Barbarossa or the great patriotic war, or the Battle of Stalingrad, is up to you. Perhaps certain actions within wars or individual battles are just, but it’s hard to reduce the entire of WWII to a simple just/unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/12 "2014-02-05T22:58:49Z")
Desert Storm was a just war. I assume you don’t mean a _perfectly_ just war, or a war where one side was morally perfect. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/13 "2014-02-05T23:02:37Z")
The current revolt against Assad of Syria seems fairly strongly justified. One might argue that it isn’t really a “war,” as it is unorganized. The boundaries aren’t well-defined. But, then, the boundaries of justification and morality aren’t well-defined either. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/14 "2014-02-06T03:27:57Z")
I’m with Ethilrist. The Allies’ war against the Axis nations was just, though I don’t feel comfortable including the USSR with the Allies as they started on the side of the Third Reich and only crossed over after they were betrayed. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/15 "2014-02-06T15:18:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > To your own judgment be it. I know at least one person in the real world who’d say that war cannot be just even in self-defense, and another who’d name several real-life conflicts in which the attackers were just in doing so. In the former case, I suppose that’s choosing genocide over war. I can’t say I’d advocate that. And for my above comment to be true, I’d have to be of the opinion that there are examples of just wars, in both theory and practice. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/16 "2014-02-08T01:43:25Z")
If you’re going by “the POV of at least one side”, then all wars are just. No one goes to war with the POV that they’re doing the wrong thing, except maybe Cobra Commander and Darth Sidious. That said, I do think a lot of wars are objectively just (at least on the part of one side). WWII, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/17 "2014-02-08T01:52:22Z")
The Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia, overthrowing the Khmer Rouge. > **[Cambodian–Vietnamese War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War)** > > Vietnamese/People's Republic of Kampuchea victory > Second > Third The war between Uganda and Tanzania which overthrew Idi Amin. According to wikipedia (I don’t know if this is true) that war was referred to as ‘the liberation war’ by Uganda. Those are just wars of aggression. There are lots of wars of self defense that are just too, Finland defending itself against the USSR, South Korea & the US defending against North Korea, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/18 "2014-02-08T02:14:20Z")
I believe that there are just wars, for instance I believe that the US had to fight in WWII, even if the Japanese did not attack, we could not sit by and have Britain fall. That said, perspective is a b\*tch. German soldiers in WWI went to war with “Gott mitt eins”(God is with us) on their beltbuckles. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/19 "2014-02-08T04:37:54Z")
The Catholic Church has established a doctrine on when a war can be “just”. It has four rules: \*The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain. \*All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective. \*There must be serious prospects of success. \*The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. Regardless of whether or not you’re a Catholic, I feel these are a solid set of moral guidelines on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609/20 "2014-02-08T05:40:58Z")
When France and Great Britain declared war on Nazi Germany for invading Poland in 1939 that was in my mind a just war. The US declaring war on Japan after Pearl Harbor is another. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-just-war-if-yes-can-you-name-one/680609.md?page=2)