# Is there such a thing as a white border collie plus a rant on dog breeders
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 21, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723 "2001-10-21T19:32:58Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/1 "2001-10-21T19:32:58Z")
I saw a dog that had the most beautiful white coat, mostly, with som black around the ears and very nice pale pink here and there on the nose and a few other places. It was a beautiful dog and very friendly. The coat was curly, not straight. To my surprise the owners claimed it was a border collie. It would go right up to people and wag its tail and was happy and content, not nervous or anything or whining. But I thought border collies were short dogs, this one was fairly tall, and border collies are black with a white shoulder area and white here and there, not on the whole body. Anyone would want this dog but now I guess it is a whole brteed and therefore would cost a thousand dollars or something. Also another question, why do dog breeders breed their dogs lying around in their own waste and in small cages on muddy back areas so nobody knows what is going on? With the unbelievably incredible prices they charge for these pathetic dogs, ruined for life by the mistreatment that all the breeders give them, plus overbreeding them so the dogs are all killers, wouldn’t you think they could at least keep them clean? Everyn once in awhile you read about these people being caught by county or state authorities.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/2 "2001-10-21T19:46:11Z")
There are good dog breeders who treat their dogs well and care for them, and there are puppy mill operators.
The latter are particularly heinous excuses for human beings.
Personally, all my dogs ar mutts. Mutts are simply the best dogs around, and you can get them for a reasonable donation at the local animal shelter.
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### Author:  [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/3 "2001-10-21T19:55:51Z")
From the breed standard at [http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/border.cfm](http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/border.cfm) :
> [@](#):
>
> The Border Collie appears in many colors, with various combinations of patterns and markings. The most common color is black with or without the traditional white blaze, collar, stockings and tail tip, with or without tan points. However, a variety of primary body colors is permissible. **The sole exception being all white.** Solid color, bi-color, tri-color, merle and sable dogs are judged equally with dogs having traditional markings. Color and markings are always secondary to physical evaluation and gait.
(bolding mine)
The dog you saw may have had enough black to qualify, was actually off-white of some sort, or was simply a “pet grade” dog that would have been disqualified in competition.
I’d call border collies “medium sized”, not “short”. That standard says 19 to 22" at the withers for males, 18 to 21 for females.
Obviously, not all dog breeders behave as you describe, but those that do are deserving of felony charges. And buyers of pedigreed dogs should be careful to deal with reputable breeders. Oh, your question was why do those breeders do it? Well, you answered that when you mentioned the incredible prices they charge. If you’re in it strictly for the money, proper care is an expense, and the more you can cut expenses, the higher the profit.
As for “overbreeding them so the dogs are all killers”, that is another topic entirely. Somebody else may take it up if they feel like it.
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### Author:  [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/4 "2001-10-21T20:00:02Z")
There’s a fairly fierce debate that rages about how much oversight the AKC should have to weed out puppy mill monsters from the reputable breeders. For example, some people think the AKC should red flag a place if a bitch has more than one little a year. But others claim that is not its role–besides which, the AKC makes it smoney off of registries so its not in its fiscal interest to stop scumbags. As for other agencies, the state Ag departments don’t have the staffs to do it, I don’t think.
But frankly, I think it’s a huge fault of the public, too. People think getting a dog should be “easy” and that it’s okay to shop for puppies in a store at the mall, or to just get one by answering an ad in the paper. That’s how puppy mill operators and backyard breeders work, primarily. If the general public wouldn’t have such a casual attitude about purebred dogs, then the scum and the uninformed breeders would be out of business. Here’s a tip: if the breeder asks you more questions that you ask her/him, it’s a good sign.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/5 "2001-10-21T20:34:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by don willard \*
> \*\*Also another question, why do dog breeders breed their dogs lying around in their own waste and in small cages on muddy back areas so nobody knows what is going on? With the unbelievably incredible prices they charge for these pathetic dogs, ruined for life by the mistreatment that all the breeders give them, plus overbreeding them so the dogs are all killers, wouldn’t you think they could at least keep them clean? \*\*
You should have asked, "why do _some_ dog breeders breed their dogs lying around in their own waste and in small cages on muddy back areas so nobody knows what is going on?
The answer is that this small minority of breeders are scumbag creeps who make the rest of the breeders look bad. When I was looking for my dog which I eventually got from a breeder you better believe that I checked very carefully to make sure that they treated their dogs humanely.
Haj
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### Author:  [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2001, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/6 "2001-10-22T01:07:43Z")
First, let’s not have a _debate_ about puppy mills in this forum.
Second, the Border Collie has been recognized as a show breed by the AKC only since the mid 1990s. For centuries before that the dogs were bred for herding ability, not conformation to a physical type. Today there are many, many, Border Collie breeders who refuse to have anything at all to do with the AKC.
> [@](#):
>
> prior to 1995 there was no tradition in this country of showing Border Collies in dog shows, or breeding them to look a certain way. They were bred and valued for their abilities, not their appearance.
> . . .
> When the United States Border Collie Club (USBCC) was founded in 1975, one of its purposes was to oppose the adoption of an appearance standard for the Border Collie [http://www.bordercollie.org/akc.html](http://www.bordercollie.org/akc.html)
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### Author:  [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2001, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/7 "2001-10-22T02:08:42Z")
In the UK we have two types of Border Collie – Scottish and Welsh. I’ve seen brown and white as well as black and white, some that had more white in their coats than others, and some with different-coloured eyes, but never a wholly white one.
They do have a reputation for being nervous dogs, but that’s because they’re highly intelligent and loyal, so they respond badly to any ill-treatment or a lack of positive attention from their owners, especially early in life.
As a slight hijack, there used to be [a show on TV](http://www.qwertyuiop.co.uk/gs/atoz/programmes/o/one_man_and_his_dog/) over here, in which sheep farmers used to compete against each other to see whose dog could round up a flock of sheep against the clock! No prize money – the sheer (shear?) glory of winning and a small trophy was prize enough.
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### Author:  [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-white-border-collie-plus-a-rant-on-dog-breeders/88723/8 "2001-10-22T22:24:25Z")
It is always a small minority of any profession or endeavor that is bad, and why this is is a topic for another thread. (Or why people claim it is anyway, since I don’t believe it myself).
Thanks for the information on the white dog, his body was all white but there were markings on his head and ears and paws.