# Is there such a thing as math dyslexia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 22, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991 "2010-02-22T17:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/21 "2010-02-24T22:05:44Z")
The way I see it, the symbol manipulation _is_ the basic algebra; the plugging in is just the final arithmetic. (Although it’s ultimately a kind of symbol shuffling in itself, just one you are apparently less strong with…) ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/22 "2010-02-24T22:08:57Z")
> [@Ring](#): > > In advanced abstract math there are practically no numbers, almost everything is Greek letters and other strange symbols. If you’re having difficulty discerning the notation I wonder which would apply - dyscalculia or dyslexia? There’s some evidence that advanced abstract math and arithmetic are two different skill sets. I have seen anecdotal evidence for this (in the advanced calculus class I took in college, and what people said about it), so I’d believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/23 "2010-02-24T22:18:45Z")
I think I had something like that, maybe still do. It isn’t that I have trouble translating symbols into quantities, nor is it specifically an abstraction issue. In fact, what made me realize that algebra could be interesting was the fact that you could prove facts about numbers generally by using methods similar to geometry–and in doing so you used, for the most part, abstract quantities like x or x +1 rather than 5 or 72. But I seem to have a problem with 7’s and 4’s. When called on to do some quick subtraction in my head, if I should come up with something ending in 94, I might say “97”. It’s almost like a problem with the written numeral, the way dyslexics have with letters. ---
**Author:** ![dragoncat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@dragoncat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dragoncat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/24 "2010-02-25T05:56:53Z")
I’m not saying I don’t believe dyscalculia exists, but I’ve heard that one reason Americans are so bad at math is that our teachers don’t know how to teach it or really what they’re teaching. I wonder if that shortcoming might contribute to some people’s serious problems with math. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/25 "2010-02-25T07:08:01Z")
Does Discalculia encompass people who _can_ do arithmetic but absolutely cannot grasp anything more complicated than that (like, say algebra or trigonometry)? ---
**Author:** ![Moonshiner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@Moonshiner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonshiner)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/26 "2010-02-25T13:31:39Z")
Well, it only took 40 years, but I now have a diagnosis. Thanks all. It’s a relief to know that my problems at least have a name. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/27 "2010-02-25T13:47:41Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > I’m well known for doing stupid stuff like 2x3=5 and 6x-4x=4x. It feels to me, at least, like the two are separate processes - the equations and symbols are like writing words, while the numbers actually involve, well, numbers, and I’m pretty good with words. > [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > There’s some evidence that advanced abstract math and arithmetic are two different skill sets. Well, you know what they say. There are three kinds of mathematicians: those who know how to count, and those who don’t. > [@dragoncat](#): > > I’m not saying I don’t believe dyscalculia exists, but I’ve heard that one reason Americans are so bad at math is that our teachers don’t know how to teach it or really what they’re teaching. I wonder if that shortcoming might contribute to some people’s serious problems with math. I’m not American, but I’m a mathematician, and people I know have seen evidence that those who study to become high school math teachers are very often not very good at math, and not very interested in the subject. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/28 "2010-02-25T13:56:47Z")
I have it too. I got a ‘math disability’ diagnosis when I was 10 or 11. I have every problem on that list in some form, except that I am an excellent judge of time, a good budgeter provided I write everything down meticulously, and I am also good at memorizing strings of random numbers (can’t do letters, though!). I also have ADD. It hasn’t affected my life much, and I’ve gotten much better at math/logic in general as an adult. If I really applied myself I think I could get a basic understanding of most concepts. I find higher/abstract math much easier to understand and apply than arithmatic. I never got beyond 8th grade level math in schoo, land I didn’t learn how to tell time on a clock face until I was 12. I still have some trouble doing simple things, like… counting. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/29 "2010-02-25T14:04:02Z")
I worked with a woman who had it. Neither she nor anyone else knew until she did a few months as our filing clerk. A file numbered 139111 could end up between 1300 and 1399 or between 13900 and 13999. We ended up having to empty the file bays and refile everything. And give her another job. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/30 "2010-02-25T20:08:08Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > Does Discalculia encompass people who can do arithmetic but absolutely cannot grasp anything more complicated than that (like, say algebra or trigonometry)? Probably not, AFAIK; it’s more of a mechanical-type processing glitch. Just as people with dyslexia are generally perfectly capable of understanding language concepts like grammar and semantics and narrative and poetic structure and so forth, but simply can’t correctly process the written symbols in which they’re expressed, people with dyscalculia generally are able to understand what mathematics is about, but have trouble with processing and manipulating the symbols that express actual calculations. I would think that if somebody has no trouble with arithmetic, any problems they have with other areas of math would probably not imply dyscalculia. But I’m not an expert; maybe there are more specialized types of dyscalculia that affect, for example, more abstract symbol processing capabilities but not the ability to manipulate ordinary numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/31 "2010-02-25T21:04:38Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Does Discalculia encompass people who _can_ do arithmetic but absolutely cannot grasp anything more complicated than that (like, say algebra or trigonometry)? See [here](http://thirteencelebration.org/blog/edblog/what-is-algebra-anyway/1081/) for one discussion, by Keith Devlin, of the difference between arithmetical thinking and algebraic thinking. [QUOTE=Keith Devlin] What that amounts to, is thinking logically rather than numerically. Ultimately, it’s still about numbers, but in algebra you use analytic, qualitative reasoning about numbers, whereas in arithmetic you use numerical, quantitative reasoning with numbers. [/QUOTE] Or there’s Lewis Carroll’s distinction: [QUOTE=Lewis Carroll] the arithmetical method is that of “synthesis” only; it goes from one known fact to another, till it reaches its goal: whereas the algebraical method is that of “analysis”; it begins with the goal, symbolically represented, and so goes backwards, dragging its veiled victim with it, till it has reached the full daylight of known facts, in which it can tear off the veil and say, “I know you!” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/32 "2010-02-25T21:10:42Z")
I know I had a much easier time, and enjoyed math class much more, when I got to algebra. You can still make arithmetic mistakes in algebra, and I did, but at least it wasn’t all about doing arithmetic quickly any more. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/33 "2010-02-25T22:56:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’ve always displayed _terrible_ problems with math… but I have NO problems with maps, navigation, analog clocks, most of the rest of the definitive list. My ability to visualize in 3-D and handle spatial problems is actually _waaaaaaaaaaaaaay_ above average. On the other hand, it took my _two years_ to learn the multiplication tables up to 12x12, and _four_ years to master long division. I required extra tutoring to get through basic math, and I take _much_ than average to complete calculations. _Once I get them done_ they’re accurate, but my math processor functions at about quarter speed it seems. > > I, too, endured many accusations of being lazy, having a bad attitude, stubbornness, etc. “You’re an A student in everything else, if you would just apply yourself you could do well in math, too!” That was when I was spending hours a night trying to get my homework done, was giving up my lunch hour for tutoring, and so on… didn’t matter how much tutors, parents, and teachers (I have a few who clued into my having a problem rather than a bad attitude) vouched for me, my high school counselor was convinced that I was somehow “faking” it, staging all that for attention… > > Yeah, still a little bitter after all these years… > > Whatever. I’ve developed coping skills, I love having a calculator function on my cellphone, and I’ve gotten on with my life. You are exactly like me! Except I didn’t get the “lazy” accusation. My mom just told me, “oh, you’re just a girl. Girls are bad at math…like me!” I struggled, especially with long division. I understood the concepts and quantities, but the numbers jumbled around in my head. I would invert numbers or signs. I learned to go back and check my work with logic and visualize just as **Kimstu** suggested. In general, I simply have to be careful. The weird part is, just like Broomstick, I am very good at spatial reasoning, and never had problems with analog clocks, maps, calculus/geometry/trig/most algebra. The only time I had a problem with algebra was factoring out polynomials. It was back to the simple arithmetic again. I’m a biochemist, so I guess I was able to work through my ‘disability’. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/34 "2010-02-25T23:06:26Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I think I had something like that, maybe still do. It isn’t that I have trouble translating symbols into quantities, nor is it specifically an abstraction issue. In fact, what made me realize that algebra could be interesting was the fact that you could prove facts about numbers generally by using methods similar to geometry–and in doing so you used, for the most part, abstract quantities like x or x +1 rather than 5 or 72. > > But I seem to have a problem with 7’s and 4’s. When called on to do some quick subtraction in my head, if I should come up with something ending in 94, I might say “97”. It’s almost like a problem with the written numeral, the way dyslexics have with letters. Yep, that’s me too. In fact, I can blurt something out that’s an order of magnitude off and a second later realize that it’s completely impossible. I am so glad I saw this thread. It’s nice to know that there are others around who aren’t simply “bad at math” or “lazy” or “girls”. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/35 "2010-02-25T23:14:37Z")
i’ve read that lefties tend to transpose numbers more than righties, and an informal survey in my old office proved it correct. when given a phone number a good number of lefties would transpose a number in the series. i transpose numbers all the time. i am very thankful i am in the calculator years. carrying numbers, borrowing numbers, odd numbers, all very bad. i have trouble with digital clocks because when i see 2:55 i think 2 ish, when it is really 3ish. i need to see the hand positions to know what the time is. just don’t ask me what time it is, i’ll tell you something like 5 minutes before 3:30. i did much, much, better in algebra than simple math. don’t ever have me do a percentage other than 50%. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991/36 "2010-02-25T23:18:25Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > i have trouble with digital clocks because when i see 2:55 i think 2 ish, when it is really 3ish. You must be the reason so many products are priced at $2.99. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-math-dyslexia/529991.md?page=1)