# Is there such a Thing as "Western Civilzation" ? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 20, 2017, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176 "2017-11-20T09:56:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/1 "2017-11-20T09:56:50Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Hector\_St\_Clare** > > The idea of “Western” civilization was always sort of an illusion. Europe isn’t a civilization, it’s a geographical entity comprising multiple different and incompatible civilizations… > > Originally Posted by **Les Espaces Du Sommeil** > I don’t question the rest of your post but I find this initial assertion… weird. > > Of course, “Europe” is a geographical concept first, but claiming that there isn’t such a thing as “Western” civilization strikes me as totally specious. We’re talking about countries which share\* : > > - A double cultural heritage (Greco-Roman + Christian). > - A common linguistic origin (Indo-European, except for Finnish, Hugarian, Estonian and Basque). > - A series of caracteristic artistic trends (Gothic, Romanticism, Modernism), genres (the Tragedy, the Novel, the Symphony) and techniques (polyphony and counterpoint, realistic portraits - including nudes) > - An emphasis on the scientific method, rationalism and secular humanism. > - A rather unique experience with colonialism on a global scale. > > Yes, there are some differences between various countries, some major but you just have to travel a bit to realize how some other cultures have wildly opposite values and worldviews. As far as I’m concerned, I’ve never felt out of place in a European country. I need a couple of days to adapt to some superficial differences and I’m good to go, because the way we think and act are very similar throughout Western Europe, precisely because of this widely shared background. > > Perhaps we should start another thread. > > - This list isn’t meant to imply that Western Civilization is “better” or more “advanced” than others. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Hector\_St\_Clare** Yes, I very strongly disagree with your thesis here, although it’s a rather common one. I’ll respond to your points but not in order. > > 1. “A shared history of colonialism” really only applies to the big Western European nations. Scandinavia and the Baltics participated in colonialism only to a small extent, and the nations that were part of the eastern empires (Russia, Austria-Hungary, Turkey) not at all. This is actually a really important explanatory factor, I think. I think a lot of liberal thinking on ethnicity , race, etc. in America, Britain, France, etc. today is driven by (understandable) guilt for the many horrible things that we did to peoples in Africa, Asia and the Americas. This isn’t a sentiment that Eastern Europeans sympathize with, and I suspect the thinking is “why should we feel historical guilt for things that we had no responsibility for?” > > 2. Sharing a religion doesn’t really make two people, or countries, part of the same civilization. The bloodiest conflicts, after all, usually happen within religions, not between them (Christians, Muslims, Zoroastrians have all been historically even tougher on their own heretics than on nonbelievers, although Christianity was pretty tough on nonbelievers too). Lots of countries outside Europe have a history of Christianity as old as any (Ethiopia, for example), but I wouldn’t consider Ethiopia to be part of the same ‘civilisation’ as England. There are multiple different Christian civilizations just as there are multiple Buddhist and Islamic civilizations. For that matter, Islam builds on the Greek intellectual heritage to some extent as well. > > Shortly before the Muslim conquest of Constantinople, the Grand Duke of the Byzantine Empire is supposed to have said “Better the turban than the mitre”, i.e. that he’d prefer to submit to conquest by the Turks than to embrace Catholicism and ally with the west. I think that says something interesting and important about the extent to which eastern Christians and western Christians, then and now, see themselves as part of the same civilization. > > 1. Again, I think the real thing that convinces me is to look at, e.g., the Inglehart-Welzel map of cultural attitudes. Eastern and Western European societies are, on the ‘survival vs. self expression’ axis, very far apart indeed. They’re much closer on the secularism vs. tradition axis (i.e. eastern European societies are secular without being liberal). > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingleh...Values\_Map.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingleh...Values_Map.svg) > > there’s even a little evidence in the last five years they’ve been moving farther apart, see the video here: > > [http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/WVS...CMSID=Findings](http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/WVS...CMSID=Findings) 1. “A shared history of colonialism” really only applies to the big Western European nations. I actually happen to agree with you here, but again, I was refering to “Western Civilization” in a narrower sense, i.e. based mainly around countries of Western Europe. Remember that our discussion started in a thread about [Brexit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=837166&page=3), and I took your reference to “multiple different and incompatible civilizations” to mean that countries of Western Europe had irreconcilable worldviews, which struck me as highly controversial, to say the least. Do you really think that England, France, Germany and Italy have mutually exclusive civilizations ? If so, I’d really like to know how. I’d be interested in knowing which particular characteristics trump the profound, long-lasting common features that I listed above. 1. Sharing a religion doesn’t really make two people, or countries, part of the same civilization. True, but that’s not what I claimed. With regard to religion, I say that the mixing of Christianity _and_ the Greco-Roman legacy is one of the key characteristic of Western Civilization. Both your counter-examples (Ethiopia being Christian and Islam building “on the Greek intellectual heritage”) adress only one part of it and so, actually reinforce my claim. 1. Again, I think the real thing that convinces me is to look at, e.g., the Inglehart-Welzel map of cultural attitudes. Thanks for that link. If it had only been a chart based on values (survival versus self-expression + traditional versus secular-rational), I’d have found it very convincing, especially since it also agrees with my position : note for instance how close Great-Britain, Belgium, Italy and France are. But then, they had to superimpose some sort of meta-categories which don’t make sense to me. They have one for “English-Speaking” countries but Spain and Portugal are not included in the same one as other Spanish (or Portugese)-speaking countries. Would that be another example of the “but-we-are-different !” Anglo-Saxon petulance ? They lump “African” and “Islamic” together (Zibabwe and Morocco, totally the same thing). And Turkey, Indonesia and Jordan are all “South Asian” :dubious:. So, for the purpose of this thread, is there such a thing as “Western Civilization” ? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/2 "2017-11-20T10:20:48Z")
When I hear someone talking about Western Civilization, I know what they are talking about. So, apparently, it exists, with agreed-upon parameters ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/3 "2017-11-20T11:00:40Z")
Like so many terms of this type, its validity derives from the context in which it is used, the audience to whom it is spoken, and the ideological motives of the speaker. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/4 "2017-11-20T11:13:50Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Like so many terms of this type, its validity derives from the context in which it is used, the audience to whom it is spoken, and the ideological motives of the speaker. Yes. It’s useful until it isn’t 😉 It’s a loose term. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/5 "2017-11-20T11:57:18Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > When I hear someone talking about Western Civilization, I know what they are talking about. So, apparently, it exists, with agreed-upon parameters Yeah. Now, does every instance of “Western (Civilization)” mean the same thing, or every country and culture and person in it have the same values? No, but the first is partly because of lazy language, partly because language is inherently blurry; the second applies to any human group where N \>1. And it can even apply to groups with N = 1 depending on time of day and phase of the moon… Heck, the arsehole who came up with that “Clash of Civilizations” piece of jewelry didn’t consider Hispanoportuguese countries as Western; we do see ourselves as very much Western. Other people say “Western” to mean “the USA”, others “English-speaking, white-majority countries”. But I can find similar examples for, say, “Spaniard”: some of the extreme examples were in the news a lot last month. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/6 "2017-11-20T13:05:04Z")
I answered “Western European countries have many common characteristics but many major differences, too” which I guess is a “No”. By this I don’t mean “every country is different” or some trite crap like that, but more broadly, I think Western Europe doesn’t qualify as one civilisation, it is _at minimum_ 2, one Nordic/Germanic, one Romantic/Celtic. There are places where there’s an admixture, like Britain and France, but I think the two strands are different enough to preclude boxing them into _one_ Civ. Note that I’m not peddling some racist Mediterranean vs Nordic types thing here, I’m just saying history (especially where the Romans did or didn’t conquer, and where the Reformation did or didn’t take hold, etc) has led to a difference. Obviously there are no absolutes - after the Empire, Germanic tribes happily conquered down to the Med and beyond, Catholicism and Protestantism sit side by side in Germany and Switzerland, where do the Celts really fit, etc but there’s still, to me, a divide. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/7 "2017-11-20T14:34:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I answered “Western European countries have many common characteristics but many major differences, too” which I guess is a “No”. > > By this I don’t mean “every country is different” or some trite crap like that, but more broadly, I think Western Europe doesn’t qualify as one civilisation, it is _at minimum_ 2, one Nordic/Germanic, one Romantic/Celtic. There are places where there’s an admixture, like Britain and France, but I think the two strands are different enough to preclude boxing them into _one_ Civ. > > Note that I’m not peddling some racist Mediterranean vs Nordic types thing here, I’m just saying history (especially where the Romans did or didn’t conquer, and where the Reformation did or didn’t take hold, etc) has led to a difference. Obviously there are no absolutes - after the Empire, Germanic tribes happily conquered down to the Med and beyond, Catholicism and Protestantism sit side by side in Germany and Switzerland, where do the Celts really fit, etc but there’s still, to me, a divide. I’ve always been facinated by the fact that, very broadly speaking, the Catholicism/Protestantism divide fits nicely over the Latin/Germanic cultural areas. I don’t think it’s a coincidence, though I can’t come up with an explanation. Still, I agree that dividing European peoples into Mediterranean and Nordic strands makes sense. The real question is : are these different worldviews fundamental (civilizational, so to speak) or mere variations on a deeper common background ? I suppose that, given your answer, you’d pick the former. I’d lean towards the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/8 "2017-11-20T20:27:53Z")
It exists because it used to exist. Back in the 19th Century, it wasn’t even a question: Western Civilization was the Christian civilization, the one founded on Classical Civilization with a very strong admixture of Christian philosophy (as filtered through Neoplatonism) in the Late Roman Empire. It had produced Democracy, the Rights of Man, and Scientific Progress, which it was proceeding to spread across the world. That mindset was important then and it’s important now. Whether or not you agree with it, it’s still important to understand. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/9 "2017-11-20T23:29:21Z")
Of course it exists. And it’s not just about Europe, not for a long while now, though our brethren and sistren across the big pond don’t seem to realize the world doesn’t revolve around them so much anymore. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/10 "2017-11-21T00:11:23Z")
Western Civilization is like pornography. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/11 "2017-11-21T00:26:16Z")
It does exist but there is no firm definition or borders. Like “First World nation” after the Cold War ended. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/12 "2017-11-21T09:47:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Of course it exists. And it’s not just about Europe, not for a long while now, though our brethren and sistren across the big pond don’t seem to realize the world doesn’t revolve around them so much anymore. 😛 You’re right of course, my bad :o (though I _do_ realize it, it was just lazy writing on my part). But then, the same may be true of our North American cousins within a few decades. Who knows 😛 ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/13 "2017-11-21T15:17:48Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > You’re right of course, my bad :o (though I _do_ realize it, it was just lazy writing on my part). > > But then, the same may be true of our North American cousins within a few decades. Who knows 😛 ? The Canadians and Aussies already think we’ve forgotten they are carrying the torch as well, and many of my fellow Americans think we are the center of Western Civilization™. We are all wrong, of course…there is no center, and the nebulous term extends into many countries you’d never consider ‘western’. As Agent Smith would say, it’s like a virus… ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/14 "2017-11-21T17:49:52Z")
At my university students are required to take courses in a number of “general education” categories, one of which is Western Civilization. I often teach a course on Dostoevsky which is listed under this heading. It makes me smile to think of Dostoevsky’s probable apoplectic reaction to being named a representative of Western civilization. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/15 "2017-11-22T14:38:38Z")
Yeah, I don’t know what to make of Slavic countries. My instinctive feeling would be to consider them as part of, but at the periphery of, Western Civilization. On the other hand, I can see how others’d think that the differences are sufficiently substantial to warrant a separate category. Going back to the charcateristics I listed above : - A double cultural heritage (Greco-Roman + Christian). Undoubtedly. - A common linguistic origin (Indo-European, except for Finnish, Hugarian, Estonian and Basque). That, too. - A series of caracteristic artistic trends (Gothic, Romanticism, Modernism), genres (the Tragedy, the Novel, the Symphony) and techniques (polyphony and counterpoint, realistic portraits - including nudes) Less clear. Some major novels and symphonies were written by Slavic artists. Romanticism and Modernism are trends that have some important exponents there but on the whole, Slavic countries seem peripheral, especially Russia, which only started looking West in the 18th century. - An emphasis on the scientific method, rationalism and secular humanism. Yes, for the former two - the latter, not so much. - A rather unique experience with colonialism on a global scale. No. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/16 "2017-11-22T16:02:10Z")
“I think it would be a good idea” - [Gandhi](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/23/good-idea/) (not) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/17 "2017-11-22T19:37:33Z")
Of course there is… [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7B238iwAmw) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/18 "2017-11-22T19:51:02Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > I’ve always been facinated by the fact that, very broadly speaking, the Catholicism/Protestantism divide fits nicely over the Latin/Germanic cultural areas. You’re going _very_ broad here. I don’t think that divide is particularly neat myself, especially considering southern Germany/Austria, let alone discrete chunks like Luxembourg. I don’t think there is any inherent cultural reason for it, merely historical geography. > [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Yeah, I don’t know what to make of Slavic countries. > > - A rather unique experience with colonialism on a global scale. > No. No? Russia doesn’t have experience with colonialism on a global scale? Russia, one of the participants in the [Great Game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game)? Russia, like Manchu China, expanded over land rather than over sea. But they expanded _enormously_ and colonialism is colonialism :). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/19 "2017-11-23T07:13:05Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Yeah, I don’t know what to make of Slavic countries. My instinctive feeling would be to consider them as part of, but at the periphery of, Western Civilization. I don’t know. Tell a Czech that his society has been on the periphery of Western civilization and see how he reacts. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176/20 "2017-11-23T12:10:12Z")
Yes, I feel the same way about the Czech. Actually, I wrote this in the [“Brexit and the Irish Border Conundrum” thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20604890#post20604890) that led me to start this one: > [@Brexit and the Irish Border Conundrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/121): > > … > > Finally, the “Eastern Wave” of the early 2000s may have been a mistake. A move that was both noble _and_ pragmatic but which led to real problems. Listening to Hungarian or Polish leaders, it’s clear that they come from a very different reference point. And of course, it’s played into the hands of the “we’re not racist but we’re concerned about ethnic homogeneity” crowd. I must admit **I’m a bit surprised by the veer to the right in the Czech Republic, though. I always saw it as the most Western-looking of these countries.** > [@Tamerlane](#): > > No? Russia doesn’t have experience with colonialism on a global scale? Russia, one of the participants in the [Great Game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game)? > > Russia, like Manchu China, expanded over land rather than over sea. But they expanded _enormously_ and colonialism is colonialism :). You know, as soon as I posted it, I remembered Russia’s eastward expansion :o. Still, I’m on the fence about this. There’s no doubt that it covered a vast area but it was also contained on one continent, albeit a huge one. There was no Russian presence in Africa or Oceania and only a relatively short-lived one in America. Colonialism may be colonialsim but was Russia’s as global as Spain’s, Britain’s or France’s ? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-a-thing-as-western-civilzation/802176.md?page=2)