# Is there such thing as a "White American Overclass"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975 "2008-12-28T17:26:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/61 "2008-12-30T00:38:02Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > I’m just not seeing the difference between “overclass” and “wealthy.” Yes, I’ve seen the comments about the nouveau riche not “passing,” but I think that would last one generation, at most. Their children will soon fall into the “overclass.” Yes, they will – so long as they’re white. Which might change in the future. There was a time, and not so long ago, when full overclass membership was denied to the wealthiest Jews. They might grow up in the same neighborhoods as rich gentiles and have rich gentile friends, but at the age of 18 their life paths would diverge – the Jews would go to different colleges and probably end up working in different companies or law firms and never have a chance of joining the most “exclusive” country clubs. That is no longer (so much) the case. > [@toadspittle](#): > > All those new people you were mentioning who have been coming in from the south and west? Guess what–they’re nouveau riche. Only now they’re being admitted to the overclass. > > Replace “overclass” with “tax bracket” and I don’t see any difference. > > Do wealthy people have more power, and the ability to pass that wealth and power on to their descendants? Yes. That’s the nature of wealth. Calling it an “overclass” confuses the point. The difference is access to a network of powerful social connections, which money can’t buy, at least not in the first generation. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/62 "2008-12-30T01:02:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Maybe, probably not. Right, because your “overclass” is more of a subculture than a class. > [@](#): > > The main problem is not their prejudice but that your corn-fed boy in that situation is, in the current structure of our society, a relatively rare animal. I don’t see why it’s such a big problem. If a smart farm boy from Iowa prefers to take the ACT; go to Iowa State University; stay in the Midwest; drink beer instead of wine; listen to country music instead of NPR; and vacation within the US instead of Europe, what’s the big deal? > [@](#): > > (BTW, could you spell out “SWPL set”?) SWPL = Stuff White People Like > [@](#): > > Probably not. But his getting into an Ivy-League university in the first place would be a challenge, in part because of [legacy preferences,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences) which Lind wants to outlaw. I disagree with that too. Top colleges are always looking to improve their “geographic diversity,” which is basically code for not admitting too many Jewish kids from the suburbs of New York. I grant you that legacy admissions cut the other way, but a top student with good scores who is from the West or Midwest does have certain advantages in the Ivies. > [@](#): > > **Lind’s** specific proposals are set forth in Chapter Eight of his book. I am rereading it and will prepare you a summary. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![EpiGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8c91f0/32.png) [@EpiGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EpiGirl)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/63 "2008-12-30T02:34:46Z")
I’ve read most of the first page and skimmed over the second page so forgive me if this point has already be made. There may be an “overclass” as has been defined in OP, but this population is slowly ceasing to be relevant in the face of the “new rich” **BrainGlutton** has mentioned. I don’t really understand the necessity to separate these people from the general wealthy population in this day and age. I don’t think their political and social clout are distinguishable. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/64 "2008-12-30T03:15:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Is there such thing as a “White American Overclass”? God, I HOPE so! And they better go back to throwing their money away because this layoff is killing me. I am annoyed with the stock market because I don’t like competition. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/65 "2008-12-30T03:19:44Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Part of the massive hate that descended on Sarah Palin was a result of she and her clan being NOKD with regard to the overclass. Bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit. Even accepting this idea of the overclass, Palin was popular because she was in a position of power without being a member, but she was hated because she was deliberately ignorant and unqualified. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/66 "2008-12-30T03:48:14Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > Bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit. Even accepting this idea of the overclass, Palin was popular because she was in a position of power without being a member . . . Much like Obama. Maybe the majority of Americans don’t **like** the overclass very much? And on that much can be built. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/67 "2008-12-30T03:50:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Much like Obama. Maybe the majority of Americans don’t **like** the overclass very much? And on that much can be built. 😉 Like a series of _Caddyshack_ movies? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/68 "2008-12-30T03:58:56Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yet again, this is more than a subculture than a class as I illustrated earlier in the thread. You must understand, a subculture can be something coterminous with a class or something orthogonal to it. African-Americans have an ethnic subculture, which has shaped all African-Americans from highest to lowest to some extent. But they are not all in the same social class. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/69 "2008-12-30T04:14:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You must understand, a subculture can be something coterminous with a class or something orthogonal to it. African-Americans have an ethnic subculture, which has shaped all African-Americans from highest to lowest to some extent. But they are not all in the same social class. :shrug: It’s just a matter of definitions. The key point here is that the “overclass” you have defined is not exclusive in the way that most people understand classes to be exclusive. e.g. the competent Iranian who is denied a high position because he’s not from one of the 100 Families. So I think it’s misleading to use the words “class” or “overclass.” Instead, the word “subculture” refers to a group of people which share some set of values, mannerisms, activities, interests, or beliefs etc. Based on your description of the “overclass,” I think that “subculture” is a much more accurate word to use. Feel free to use whatever definitions you like, but it won’t change the basic point, which is that the “overclass” (as you have defined it) is not exclusive in the traditional sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/70 "2008-12-30T04:43:55Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > :shrug: It’s just a matter of definitions. The key point here is that the “overclass” you have defined is not exclusive in the way that most people understand classes to be exclusive. e.g. the competent Iranian who is denied a high position because he’s not from one of the 100 Families. No, because this is America, but it is **nearly** that exclusive, as already explained many times in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/71 "2008-12-30T12:14:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, because this is America, but it is **nearly** that exclusive, No it is not, as I illustrated with my example in Post #56. You yourself conceded that the hypothetical person I described would have little or no problem joining your “overclass.” If he wanted to. Which he probably would not. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/72 "2008-12-30T15:20:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, because this is America, but it is **nearly** that exclusive, as already explained many times in this thread. It has not been explained. It’s been _asserted_, without much in the way of proof. ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/73 "2008-12-30T19:12:30Z")
This has been a great, thought-provoking thread. I think that one way to address the subculture vs. class discussion, which comes down to the exclusivity/rigidity of the overfoo, is to look at the US senate. I think most people would agree that just about any white member of the senate would be a good candidate for the ‘white American overclass.’ So… does anyone know how many white senators come from humble roots ( **brazil84’s** studious farmboy) and how many come from a priviliged background? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/74 "2008-12-30T19:21:29Z")
> [@hdc\_bst](#): > > This has been a great, thought-provoking thread. > > I think that one way to address the subculture vs. class discussion, which comes down to the exclusivity/rigidity of the overfoo, is to look at the US senate. I think most people would agree that just about any white member of the senate would be a good candidate for the ‘white American overclass.’ So… does anyone know how many white senators come from humble roots ( **brazil84’s** studious farmboy) and how many come from a priviliged background? Presidents are fun: Obama - humble Bush II - Overclass Clinton - Humble Bush I - Overclass Reagan - Humble Carter - Overclass? Not sure how big that peanut operation was - went Naval Academy. Ford - Fell into it. Yalie, not sure how powerful Nixon - Humble ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/75 "2008-12-30T19:32:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, but everybody now underclass can be middle-class, even if that renders meaningless the name of the latter – i.e., can enjoy what we now think of as middle-class income, status and opportunities – and free and socially acceptable intermarriage with those families that make up the middle class at present. As for the overclass, Lind doesn’t want to destroy it as a class, only to tax it more, reduce its power and privileges, and make access to it easier. It’s a form of Disraeli’s “one-nation conservatism.” If the issue is raising people out of the underclass, the problem as I see it is that the characteristics of the “underclass” are very difficult to eradicate by outside interference. It is very difficult to _make_ people want to adopt middle-class values (ideally, those traditional of small-c conservatism - hard work, a certain degree of puritainism towards drinking and drugging, saving, the importance of family and education, etc.), if they do not. Simply taxing the “overclass” and distributing the wealth is unlikely to do it, whether or not that distribution is in the form of extra schooling (though that has its own benefits). Such social change, I believe, has got to come from within. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/76 "2008-12-30T19:53:50Z")
> [@hdc\_bst](#): > > This has been a great, thought-provoking thread. > > I think that one way to address the subculture vs. class discussion, which comes down to the exclusivity/rigidity of the overfoo, is to look at the US senate. I think most people would agree that just about any white member of the senate would be a good candidate for the ‘white American overclass.’ So… does anyone know how many white senators come from humble roots ( **brazil84’s** studious farmboy) and how many come from a priviliged background? I don’t know the answer, but I do know that there are 3 senators who are graduates of James Madison High School in Brooklyn, which ain’t no Exeter. ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/77 "2008-12-30T20:15:39Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t know the answer, but I do know that there are 3 senators who are graduates of James Madison High School in Brooklyn, which ain’t no Exeter. Maybe we can fill in the 100 blanks. I’ll start: Texas Kay Bailey Hutchinson : humble\* John Cornyn III : humble\* \*This stretches ‘humble’ quite a bit, according to my brief research both came from solidly middle class families, so I’m using ‘humble’ to contrast with ‘overclass.’ ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/78 "2008-12-30T22:38:28Z")
> [@hdc\_bst](#): > > Maybe we can fill in the 100 blanks. **New York** Chuck Schumer: humble Hillary Clinton: humble ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/79 "2008-12-30T23:19:11Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > **New York** > Chuck Schumer: humble > Hillary Clinton: humble Humble until they get to the Ivy League ,then co opted. Harvard removes the humble. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975/80 "2008-12-30T23:27:59Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Humble until they get to the Ivy League ,then co opted. Harvard removes the humble. Doesn’t change the fact that neither one grew up in any kind of “overclass.” Both were solidly middle class and had to earn their place in this “overclass.” Although Chuck Schumer is just a regular dude, even today, that really seems to enjoy public service. I think if he were forced to go to some society event, he’d duck into the kitchen and watch sports with the waiters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-a-white-american-overclass/478975.md?page=5)