# is there such thing as nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710 "2002-12-24T13:40:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rookie523](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@rookie523](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rookie523)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/1 "2002-12-24T13:40:15Z")
is there proof of nothing? can we say that the opposite of something is nothing? isn’t that insufficient proof? is there nothing past the edge of the universe? or is it something different or unknown? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/2 "2002-12-24T13:41:18Z")
There indeed is such a thing as nothing. Look in my wallet.😃 ---
**Author:** ![rookie523](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@rookie523](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rookie523)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/3 "2002-12-24T15:19:18Z")
…well to me… everyone says there is no proof of God, so God doesn’t exist. but there is no proof other than the opposite of something that nothing exists. so does nothing exist? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/4 "2002-12-24T15:27:35Z")
Nothing is not the “opposite” of anything. It is the absence of anything. You cannot prove that “nothing” exists because it is the absence of anything existing. So in other words, there’s nothing there until you prove otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/5 "2002-12-24T15:28:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*There indeed is such a thing as nothing. Look in my wallet.😃 \*\* I see something… COBWEBS! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![rookie523](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@rookie523](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rookie523)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/6 "2002-12-24T15:36:18Z")
so nothing only exists as theory. there can be no actual example of nothing. what about memories when we die? does that become nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/7 "2002-12-24T15:47:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rookie523 \* > \*\*so nothing only exists as theory. > > there can be no actual example of nothing. > > what about memories when we die? > does that become nothing? \*\* By there being no actual example, there is proof of nothing. If there was an example, that would be something, but there is not, so that is the proof. Memories when we die are what once was; there is no physical substance, but they did exist at one point. One differenciates, in your mind, memories of the dead and memories of the living? Both have no substance, no physical properties, so what’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![rookie523](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@rookie523](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rookie523)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/8 "2002-12-24T16:28:21Z")
actually i’m talking about nothing at all. not nothing in one aspect. no proof of nothing doesn’t mean there is nothing. it means there is no proof. did nothing ever exist? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/9 "2002-12-24T16:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rookie523 \* > \*\*actually i’m talking about nothing at all. > > not nothing in one aspect. no proof of nothing doesn’t mean there is nothing. it means there is no proof. > > did nothing ever exist? \*\* Well, if there is _something_ then their must be _nothing_ because if we subtract _something_ then their would be _nothing_ , so hypthetically nothing is possible, unless you would like to define and proof that _something_ exists. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/10 "2002-12-24T16:43:46Z")
I can’t answer this meaningfully, but here are a couple of books I found helpful in considering the idea of nothing. [The Book of Nothing](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375420991/qid=1040747961/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-5414357-1751964?v=glance&s=books). [The Nothing That Is](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195142373/qid=1040748382/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-5414357-1751964). ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/11 "2002-12-24T19:14:02Z")
If we were to look in the spaces between gluons, what would we find? (If we’ve found things smaller than gluons/leptons, look between them, repeat, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Dickerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Scott\_Dickerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Dickerson)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/12 "2002-12-24T19:46:05Z")
I claim that I really AM a philosopher. One small part of my philosophy (it’s basically ontology as related to “meaning”) has to do with just this question. The word “nothing” is used meaningfully and (thus) refers to some “X” for which it stands. But if you will examine how the word is used, is stands always for some RELATIVE condition of absence or lack, not for “absolute privation”–that is, not for “nonentity” taken in its most literal, etymological sense. So my complicated answer is: Yes, there is something (in fact, a wide variety of “cases”) that constitutes the meaning of the word “nothing.” No, it is not the case that the term is meaningful if taken to stand for the apparently ultimate logical extension of those meanings. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/13 "2002-12-24T19:51:20Z")
I would daresay theres no such thing as nothing. nada, zero, zippo, zilch, bupkus, goosegg… ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/14 "2002-12-24T20:37:48Z")
To extend my good man **Scott Dickerson** ’s point, if we base claims of existence on a model of sensation (phenomenology), nothing does not exist as it could never be perceived. But of course we use the word nothing frequently. It is not the absence of _everything_, it is the absence of something… which is not to say the space is devoid of anything. “There is no waiter here” can only be said if, in fact, we expect a waiter to be here. Well, it _could_ be said in other circumstances, but I don’t see this in normal conversation, and why would we? Wouldn’t the statement, “There is no waiter here” be used to say, “Hmm, I would expect a waiter to be in sight, and yet there is none.” Which is never to claim there is _nothing_, there is just _nothing we would call a waiter_. This expediency can lead the mind looking for ideals to all sorts of problems! 🙂 [absolute hijack] **Scott** , do you consider the mind to be transcendent? I’ve been thinking about your nominalistic idealism lately and wondered if this is the case. [/] ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/15 "2002-12-25T03:15:29Z")
Is Nothing sacred? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/16 "2002-12-25T03:25:31Z")
Monday…nothing Tuesday…nothing Wednesday and Thursday Nothing. Friday for a change A little more nothing… ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/17 "2002-12-25T08:16:51Z")
It occurs to me that “nothing” is an abstract idea. That is, it is not associated with any particular instance. The idea of “nothing” or the null set, or zero in mathematics, is a logical necessity. For example, in the positional notation that we use to write our numbers, after you have accumulated exactly one base with “nothing” over, the digit 1, indicating one base, by itself wouldn’t convey the idea. However 10 indicates that we have counted up exactly 1 base and no more. I’m sure that our expert logicians can come up with other ways in which a null set is required for the formulation of abstract ideas. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/18 "2002-12-25T08:47:27Z")
How appropriate to read this on Christmas. I just read (MSNBC?) that one of the reason they feel the date Jesus was born is incorrect is because there was no concept of zero…hence, we went from 1BC to 1AD…missing the year zero. Happy 2004 to you all! ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/19 "2002-12-25T09:03:56Z")
If nothing else, this thread _proves_ I belong here. My motto for years now has been: Nothing exists. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710/20 "2002-12-25T11:55:56Z")
Both Descartes (_Meditations_) and Spinoza (_Ethics_) considered nothingness to be the least possible perfection (or expressed modally, the least possible necessity). Thus, nothingness, _N_ is formally expressible as ~(\<\>(_N_)). This idea is the 6th Inference of Suber’s famous [The Great Chain of Being](http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/courses/re/chain.htm), which is a brief and breathtaking tour-de-force of ontology, ending with the conclusion that God is either uncaused or self-caused. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-such-thing-as-nothing/144710.md?page=2)