# Is there X amount of mass shootings that would change gun supporters' minds, or is that the wrong way to think? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380 "2022-05-13T19:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/263 "2022-05-18T11:12:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I am 100% willing to trade more deaths for gun rights. Thank you, I’ll be bowing out of this nonsense now. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/264 "2022-05-18T12:06:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Put in context here, it means that your individual liberty to play with guns has to be balanced by my individual liberty to freely go about in public places without fear of getting shot, to send my child to school without fear of the school being shot up, and to live in safe neighbourhoods free of gang warfare and stray bullets Which then sends us into a different GD as to whether _feeling safe_ even _ **is** _ an “individual liberty”, and then someone would bring up whether that stops at physical violence vs. verbal offense or extends to workplace policies etc. and down the rabbit hole we’d go And yes, as to the American Exception, sure, it is annoying because to be entirely truthful sometimes “everyone else is doing it” _ **is** _ valid because there’s damn good reason they do and you should look into it. (OTOH let’s be careful about assuming that a real informed decision could only possibly lead to the policies we already consider “right”.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/265 "2022-05-18T12:12:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I also firmly want it understood—I am 100% willing to trade more deaths for gun rights. I am certain that this viewpoint is a common one among 2A enthusiasts, even if it’s rarely expressed out loud. But it is nevertheless one of the most straightforwardly cold-blooded things I’ve ever read on these forums. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/266 "2022-05-18T12:20:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I also firmly want it understood—I am 100% willing to trade more deaths for gun rights. > > I am certain that this viewpoint is a common one among 2A enthusiasts, even if it’s rarely expressed out loud. But it is nevertheless one of the most straightforwardly cold-blooded things I’ve ever read on these forums Yep. It’s also completely baffling to me. What is good about guns, in and of themselves? Not “what benefit do they provide society”, which we could discuss (both for private gun ownership and for guns existing in general). But if your point is “whether guns make life better for Americans or not is irrelevant to whether they should be allowed because they’reinherently Good” that’s completely baffling to me. If guns have all the societal costs they indisputably do, and you don’t even care to compare those costs to their benefits, that’s not something can be debated. That’s a near religious blind obediece that’s impossible to reason with. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/267 "2022-05-18T12:34:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I am certain that this viewpoint is a common one among 2A enthusiasts, even if it’s rarely expressed out loud. But it is nevertheless one of the most straightforwardly cold-blooded things I’ve ever read on these forums. Eh, it’s common, and easy to say, so long as it is _other_ people who are dying for your cause. Once it hits home, and the loved one of a gun advocate is harmed by gun violence, they do _sometimes_ change their convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/268 "2022-05-18T12:35:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Eh, it’s common, and easy to say, so long as it is _other_ people who are dying for your cause. > > Once it hits home, and the loved one of a gun advocate is harmed by gun violence, they do _sometimes_ change their convictions Sort of like the people dying of COVID saying “oh my God, COVID wasn’t a liberal hoax you guys!” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/269 "2022-05-18T12:42:49Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Interesting case in point, around 1910 the United States had around 5.5x the homicide rate of England & Wales. Note that this was before either country had passed any significant firearms regulations. England had passed the Pistol Act in 1903, that required you to have a Gun License to purchase a pistol from a dealer or to carry one outside of your private property. However, in effect the 1903 Pistol Act did very little because a Gun License could be purchased on demand at any post office and there wasn’t really much more to the process. The Pistol Act also only regulated Pistols, and also did not limit private party sales at all. The first significant gun laws in England passed in 1920 with the Firearms Act. > > In 1930 after 10 years of the Firearms Act being in effect in England, the U.S. had about…11.5x the homicide rate of England, which is pretty significant. However by the 40s the ratio was down to around 4x, and has fluctuated since then. It could be suggested the Firearms Act caused English homicide rates to get even better than American rates (although again, they were already 5.5x better), but if that was true it didn’t persist into the 40s when the multiplier was back to around where it was in 1910. > > Oddly even without any real firearm regulations until 1920, England & Wales were simply much less homicidal than the United States. Almost like homicides are not driven by gun poilcy. If your argument is “due to cultural and societal trends, as well as the way policing works here, America is a more violent and criminal society than many other comparable countries”, that sounds like an argument FOR gun control to me. In other words, if Americans are more likely to commit crimes because of their society, then THEY SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED WITH GUNS, and we should have MORE gun control than a low crime society where people can be trusted and the police know what they’re doing. If you convinced me that we are inherently more criminal and violent, and our police is inherently more incompetent, then that wouldn’t make me shrug and say “I guess we can’t pass gun control laws”; it would make me say “I guess the populace is too immature to handle ‘common sense gun control’; better ban ALL firearms.” You don’t tell a three year old to drink responsibly, you take alcohol away. Now, I don’t buy your argument that Americans will just always be more violent or whatever, so I don’t end up at that conclusion. But if I believed you, that’s where I’d head, not “oh I guess we can’t compare the US and Europe so we should give up”. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/270 "2022-05-18T12:58:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I am certain that this viewpoint is a common one among 2A enthusiasts, even if it’s rarely expressed out loud. But it is nevertheless one of the most straightforwardly cold-blooded things I’ve ever read on these forums. Which is why things will only change when large numbers of rural whites are gunned down. As long as the dead are mostly urban and/or minority, the gun people are more than willing to lay down those lives on the altar of the Second Half of The Second Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/271 "2022-05-18T13:17:09Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I am certain that this viewpoint is a common one among 2A enthusiasts, even if it’s rarely expressed out loud. But it is nevertheless one of the most straightforwardly cold-blooded things I’ve ever read on these forums. Did you read my earlier post? [Is there X amount of mass shootings that would change gun supporters' minds, or is that the wrong way to think? - #67 by SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/67) You say “I’m willing to trade the right to have a drink with more deaths” every single day, or if you don’t like that analogy, take dozens of other things that you’re okay with being available despite causing deaths because it’s to your preference or it’s something you like. Why is saying that I’m okay with accepting that people will die if guns are widely legal cold blooded and horrible, but saying I’m okay with accepting that people will die if alcohol is widely legal just fine? The only difference is that he has the intellectual and moral strength to acknowledge that the choices he makes and the things he advocates have costs that he’s willing to accept. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/272 "2022-05-18T13:49:40Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > Put in context here, it means that your individual liberty to play with guns has to be balanced by my individual liberty to freely go about in public places without fear of getting shot, to send my child to school without fear of the school being shot up, and to live in safe neighbourhoods free of gang warfare and stray bullets > > Which then sends us into a different GD as to whether _feeling safe_ even _ **is** _ an “individual liberty”, and then someone would bring up whether that stops at physical violence vs. verbal offense or extends to workplace policies etc. and down the rabbit hole we’d go No, completely wrong. You’re nitpicking my particular choice of words rather than what I thought I was pretty clearly saying: the liberty at issue here is not about the right to _ **feel** _ safe, it’s about the right to _ **be** _ safe. This is what is in stark opposition to someone else’s claimed right to free access to guns. Since my comments were directed against the concept of unrestrained “individual liberties”, I was using the example of the Canadian ethos as an illustration of the fact that individual liberties are a two-way street, and that your purported right to free access to guns must, in a rational society, be balanced by my right and the right of my loved ones to be safe in our daily lives. This is in fact explicitly spelled out in the guarantee of “security of the person” in Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Its primary intent is to protect against state actions that violate such right, but like the right of free speech in both the US and Canadian constitutions, it enshrines a vitally important general principle. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/273 "2022-05-18T14:21:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What is good about guns, in and of themselves? Not “what benefit do they provide society”, which we could discuss (both for private gun ownership and for guns existing in general). That _may_ warrant a dedicated topic. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/274 "2022-05-18T14:25:34Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The only difference is that he has the intellectual and moral strength to acknowledge that the choices he makes and the things he advocates have costs that he’s willing to accept. That would be somewhat noble…if he were the one to pay those costs, and not the child who finds mommy’s Smith & Wesson in the glove compartment of the minivan. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/275 "2022-05-18T14:28:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Why is saying that I’m okay with accepting that people will die if guns are widely legal cold blooded and horrible, but saying I’m okay with accepting that people will die if alcohol is widely legal just fine? Because the **purpose** of booze is not to end a life. When John Doe uses a gun to kill somebody, the firearm is acting according to its function. As for your other litany of unsafe products, I’m more than fine with more regulation where appropriate. That’s why we have, over time, enacted more laws around the advertisement, sale, and consumption of products like alcohol and tobacco. Acknowledging that some things are unsafe is not the same as being explicitly willing to **trade innocent lives** so that I can retain my ability to end hypothetical ones. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/276 "2022-05-18T14:28:20Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You say “I’m willing to trade the right to have a drink with more deaths” every single day, or if you don’t like that analogy, take dozens of other things that you’re okay with being available despite causing deaths because it’s to your preference or it’s something you like. But we aren’t for unregulated alcohol consumption. We have laws about drinking and driving, and alcohol servers can get into trouble if they get someone drunk and let them go out and drive. If we treated alcohol like guns, then we wouldn’t have DUI laws. Even as someone who occasionally enjoys partaking in alcohol, I don’t get shitty about my right to drink, when, where, and how I want being restricted to some extent for public safety. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/277 "2022-05-18T14:28:46Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The thing is, crime policies are not all that dramatically different (to keep the discussion simple) between the US and Canada. But gun policies are dramatically different. Given these facts, how do you account for the great difference in gun violence outcomes? I don’t agree with this at all. The U.S. has very different policing, criminal sentencing standards, prison standards, and prosecutorial standards. While I am not disinterested in this line of discussion, I think it is sufficiently different from OP and thread topic that I don’t want to discuss it further here, if someone wants to hash out differences in crime and crime policy in the United States vs Peer Countries, feel free to make a thread and I will participate. > [@wolfpup](#): > > This recurring mantra about harmless legal gun ownership is a mirage, a convenient obfuscation. I said it before but I’ll say it again: every legal gun owner is law-abiding and harmless until he isn’t. To try and circle back to the thread’s core topic–which I don’t think was intended to rehash intractable disputes about guns, in terms of “changing gun supporters minds”, on regulations–we are not going to accept the idea that we have our rights taken away because some people misuse those rights. That is a terrible line of thought that undermines the very concept of rights across the board. Many responsible gun owners are fine with some regulations, regulations are not the same thing as bans. Things like shall issue licensure for example, often polls very well with a 70%+ majority in the country at large, which is a threshold sufficient for legislation in a “normal political environment.” It is important to understand the reason many gun owners oppose licensure is it has historically been implemented in a “may issue” form in blue states that essentially just served as a way to severely restrict gun ownership, based on the whims of local officials, who frequently withheld such licenses except for the politically connected. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Put in context here, it means that your individual liberty to play with guns has to be balanced by my individual liberty to freely go about in public places without fear of getting shot, to send my child to school without fear of the school being shot up, and to live in safe neighbourhoods free of gang warfare and stray bullets. I don’t disagree with the idea that they have to be balanced, but I don’t want Canadian social democracy here, period. I don’t want the balance you want, neither do other gun owners. We’re the ones voting in, and winning, elections. Not you. We get a say, not you. If gun control people want compromise it has to be on our terms. If they don’t want compromise most of us gun owners are content with the status quo. > [@Mijin](#): > > But are you against driving licenses? Because most Americans would be in favor of that level of gun regulation, and if you oppose gun licensing on libertarian grounds it seems to be an inconsistency. I’ve said a few times in this thread (admittedly in long posts, so understandable if you’ve missed it), that I am in favor of licensure. Some form of licensure also typically polls well. Vox Conversations had a discussion recently with the guy who runs [TheReload.com](http://TheReload.com) (I had never heard of it prior to the Vox interview–it appears to be a gun enthusiast website), even he mentioned that there’s a few things like prohibitions on high-capacity magazines, licensure, mandatory safety training etc that would probably have majority support in most states [he was not in favor of all of these proposals.] > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I am certain that this viewpoint is a common one among 2A enthusiasts, even if it’s rarely expressed out loud. But it is nevertheless one of the most straightforwardly cold-blooded things I’ve ever read on these forums. I think I went into more detail here explaining that view, FWIW: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is because I do not believe in a pure utilitarian ethos that maximum death minimization is always the right path. I value liberty and individual rights. You can disagree with that, but that’s a matter of political opinion, not objective right and wrong. There are many ways we could significantly lower various types of deaths in America. > > A national speed limit of 65 mph. A requirement that all new cars have BAC sensors in the steering wheel (technology already exists for this.) Banning of all tobacco products. Prohibition of alcohol sales. A tax on sugary drinks and high calorie fast food and snack items. > > I would be against each and every one of those policies, because I am simply not in favor of restricting people’s liberty to produce a utilitarian death minimization result. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Eh, it’s common, and easy to say, so long as it is _other_ people who are dying for your cause. > > Once it hits home, and the loved one of a gun advocate is harmed by gun violence, they do _sometimes_ change their convictions. I lost a grandparent to cancer almost certainly caused by a lifetime of heavy smoking. Another grandparent to heart disease almost certainly caused by a lifetime of being obese, somewhat moderate but consistent consumption of alcohol, and many decades of tobacco use. I lost a grandmother in part to a serious struggle with diabetes almost certainly in part due to poor diet. I have several close relatives struggling with health issues along these same lines right now with the unfortunate but predictable result probably coming in the next decade. That has not led me to want tobacco banned, sugary-drinks excise taxed, alcohol banned or etc. I just simply don’t have this philosophy that anything that causes death has to be banned, I think things have to be looked at in a broader concept of individual liberties. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/278 "2022-05-18T14:31:18Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I lost a grandparent to cancer almost certainly caused by a lifetime of heavy smoking. Another grandparent to heart disease almost certainly caused by a lifetime of being obese, somewhat moderate but consistent consumption of alcohol, and many decades of tobacco use. I lost a grandmother in part to a serious struggle with diabetes almost certainly in part due to poor diet. > > I have several close relatives struggling with health issues along these same lines right now with the unfortunate but predictable result probably coming in the next decade. That has not led me to want tobacco banned, sugary-drinks excise taxed, alcohol banned or etc. I just simply don’t have this philosophy that anything that causes death has to be banned, I think things have to be looked at in a broader concept of individual liberties. Yes, but all those people died because of choices that _they_ made. People who die of gun violence die because of choices that _others_ make. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/279 "2022-05-18T14:32:46Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I have several close relatives struggling with health issues along these same lines right now with the unfortunate but predictable result probably coming in the next decade. Every health issue you described is something they did to themselves, via poor choices. None of that is remotely equivalent to being murdered. Or maybe not. Your grandparent, presumably, came up in an era where the health risks of cigarettes were obfuscated. Maybe even the era where cigarette advertisements touted them as being healthy and had doctors (or actors playing doctors) shilling for them. They’re no longer allowed to do that, because **people died**. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/280 "2022-05-18T14:33:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I lost a grandparent to cancer almost certainly caused by a lifetime of heavy smoking. Another grandparent to heart disease almost certainly caused by a lifetime of being obese, somewhat moderate but consistent consumption of alcohol, and many decades of tobacco use. I lost a grandmother in part to a serious struggle with diabetes almost certainly in part due to poor diet. > > > > I have several close relatives struggling with health issues along these same lines right now with the unfortunate but predictable result probably coming in the next decade. That has not led me to want tobacco banned, sugary-drinks excise taxed, alcohol banned or etc. I just simply don’t have this philosophy that anything that causes death has to be banned, I think things have to be looked at in a broader concept of individual liberties. > > Yes, but all those people died because of choices that _they_ made. > > People who die of gun violence die because of choices that _others_ make. Firstly, that isn’t entirely true. My grandparents did not choose to be inundated with (then-legal) heavy cigarette advertising in their youths. My grandparents did not choose to have big food companies engineer sweet and savory foods that are literally designed in a lab to tickle a part of our brain that makes us excessively crave them, and then push to have them on the shelves nationwide. Secondly, there are many rights which sometimes cause other people to die, the specifics of those interactions are complex and become legal matters but are not in and of themselves usually reason for a cessation of the right. Drunk driving is not held up as a justification for banning either alcohol or cars, as an obvious example. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/281 "2022-05-18T14:34:56Z")
Right and we went ahead and made it very illegal to kill people with guns. Hell, it’s illegal just to shoot someone with a gun, better yet–it’s illegal just to **shoot at someone** with a gun, and is also illegal **just to draw a gun on someone in a threatening way without shooting** , excepting self-defense in these cases. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/282 "2022-05-18T14:37:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My grandparents did not choose to be inundated with (then-legal) heavy cigarette advertising in their youths. My grandparents did not choose to have big food companies engineer sweet and savory foods that are literally designed in a lab to tickle a part of our brain that makes us excessively crave them, and then push to have them on the shelves nationwide. But no one pulled out a twinkie in the grocery store line and killed them with it. They may have succumbed to advertising, but they still made a choice. But, if you want to blame advertising for people’s behaviors, I can point to lots of advertising for guns claiming that you aren’t safe without one on you at all times and places. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Drunk driving is not held up as a justification for banning either alcohol or cars, as an obvious example. No, but it _is_ a justification for regulating the use of both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380.md?page=15)