And once again gun owners change the discussion.
Am I the worst person to make a point? Maybe…probably.
There’s no need for such broad accusations when we have, in this very thread, an attempt - a step - towards serious dialogue. Velocity wrote that he is “in favor of a 2nd-Amendment repeal and banning/confiscating of most guns”. But the topic he started isn’t about that, it’s about understanding gun supporters. Specifically whether gun supporters believe X amount of mass shootings would change their minds.
I note that you, Martin_Hyde, haven’t directly answered the question du jour.
I suggest that the question has been answered in the negative, and invite @Velocity to return if he has any doubt left in his mind. Please find my summary of the members of the board and their relevant opinions below. I apologize if I missed or misinterpreted anybody.
No amount of mass shootings would change gun supporters’ minds
Nuanced opinions
With enough mass shootings, gun supporters would change their minds
[crickets]
Well, possibly…
~Max
Well, there was this one time when the NRA advocated for and help pass stricter gun-control laws.
Perhaps if more people of color started constitutionally carrying handguns, particularly during an event like Ferguson or a George Floyd protest, gun-rights supporters might reconsider.
But probably not.
Of relevance, did the Black Panthers perpetrate any mass shootings before June of 1967?
It seems they weren’t associated with any shootings (yet; founder Huey Newton would be arrested in October '67 for shooting a police officer; there would be a gunfight with police in April of '68, killing Bobby Hutton).
~Max
Ideas like “too many cross-variables” is just the standard handwave that happens in American politics. Nobody, when talking about some positive way that America compares to the rest of the world, claims that comparisons are impossible. Only when talking about ways in which the US is failing.
No, I don’t believe so.
But the mere sight of Black men with (legal) automatic weapons was certainly enough to force the hand of the NRA.
Would it? I don’t think so. We have had a million deaths due to COVID and still can’t get people to mask, distance and vaccinate. Because 'Murica.
Nah, that’s certainly not true.
Here is a post where I compare some U.S. health statistics negatively in comparison to the rest of the world (this is interesting specifically because you quote and agree with me in that thread)
I don’t have a problem with the general idea of comparing statistics from one country to another and drawing conclusions. But not all statistics are aptly compared, or are aptly compared in the context of particular arguments.
I think comparative crime rates are some of the most difficult to draw the sort of conclusions that I suspect gun control advocates would want to draw because there are so many culturally specific factors to crime. I think that’s true for healthcare for example too, but I think less so than crime.
I also think crime and gun crime overlap a number of areas in which America just is not that similar to most OECD countries, so choosing to narrow down only on the gun part, creates misperceptions.
For example policing in America, which is a component of crime management/statistics, is quite different than in most countries, both structurally, legally, and culturally. As another example, our approach to incarceration and rehabilitation is also markedly different from most OECD countries. As another example, the way we fund our K-12 (aka primary) education, and the wild disparities this creates between school districts, is fairly uncommon in the OECD. Our large population of racial minorities for which there is strong historic racism and discrimination against is somewhat different from most of the OECD–most of our OECD country pals are “Nation-States”, i.e. ethnic nations that formed or primarily make up a specific state. All of them of course have some degree of ethnic heterogeneity these days due to migration, the EU allowing free movement (and most of the OECD is in the EU)–by my count about 27 of the 38 OECD countries are “nation states”, the rest are mostly in the Western Hemisphere, or AU/NZ. Also worth noting the U.S. has a lower homicide rate than several of our Western Hemisphere OECD cohorts–Colombia, Mexico, Costa Rica.
I can’t remember the name of the group off hand, but there was a pretty big group of black gun advocates who were showing up in the summer of George Floyd protests, heavily armed, specifically to serve as a show of force in opposition to various white nationalist militias. I think there may have even been several different such groups.
I did not notice any significant increase in support for gun control due to it.
The difference is that we don’t have 20 examples of countries that have solved the problem of drunk driving. Solved it. Where drunk driving itself is a bizarre outlier that happens a few times a year, and us booze lovers are pretending it’s an impossible problem where the attempt to solve it would ruin our entire way of life.
I fully agree. Sandy Hook ended any hope that Republicans would be at all interested in talking about gun control.
A comedic but accurate video I think. You start getting a bunch of scary black guys shooting white people and suddenly gun control will be really important.
It’s too big of a risk for Black people to open carry. I certainly wouldn’t if I were Black.
Math. Estimated number of gunowners, about 100M. Then number of NRA members= 5M. I did the calculations up thread.
Again, you are incorrect. We have explained that many gun control laws have been passed, yet you continue with this idea.
We have explained that also, it is rooted in GOP demographics. There really is no use debating with you if you bring up a point, we explain, and you bring up the same point over and over again, like it has not been conversed. Please read the responses before responding.
Right.
[quote=“Martin_Hyde, post:159, topic:964380”]
The type of person you are “baffled” by, has virtually nothing to do with the gun homicide problem in the United States…Is there a reason you are spending time and energy talking about the hobbyists who are known to commit almost none of the gun homicides, and not the lower income young males who we know commit most murders, firearm related or otherwise [/quote]
The gun homicide problem in America is mostly inner city drug gang shootings. It ain’t the “gun nut” who has a 100 gun arsenal. It is the thug gang member who buys his 9mm handgun from a stawman “dealer” , who of course doesn’t do a background check, etc.
People who die for a cause are usually recognized by that cause. Gun owners should celebrate victims of gun violence as martyrs to the Holy Second Amendment.
Sad but true
They’re just circumventing the oppressive rules of they tyrannical government.
So you estimate that nearly one out of three Americans owns guns… including men, women, and children? This seems wrong. Can you show how you arrived at that number?
On what basis do you assume that the number of irrational gun owners is equal to the number of NRA members?
So… there was no significant change in attitudes following a news item so obscure that you can’t even name the group involved, or whether it was more than one group?
If you can’t even remember what the story was, why do you expect that the public should have formed a response to it?
I mean they were on the news decently enough, I just didn’t remember their name.
Not Fucking Around Coalition - Wikipedia
What Is the NFAC, & Who Is Grandmaster Jay? | Complex
What is the NFAC? An all-Black group arming itself and demanding change - CNN
The Not Fucking Around Coalition Wants to Protect Black Americans (vice.com)
The Many Lives of Grandmaster Jay - The Atlantic
Black armed protesters march in Kentucky demanding justice for Breonna Taylor | Reuters
Officer Jason Raynor shot and Othal Wallace now captured. What we know (news-journalonline.com)
They seemed to get decent visibility in the summer of '21.