# Is this 56 day sentence for racist remarks considered sane in the UK? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964 "2012-03-27T17:25:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/61 "2012-03-28T22:46:52Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Cornholio](#): > > Same as if someone hates Englishmen, Daily Mail readers, fat people, gays or gingers - not a crime, and not a crime to say so. Who hates gingers? After chocolate chip, they are my second favorite cookie. And even if you don’t like the taste, it hardly rises to the level of “hate”. Even when people say ‘I hate vegetables!’ they are just exaggerating a bit. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/62 "2012-03-29T02:15:16Z")
Pretty big difference between hating someone for a trait they were born with and something they were socialised into. I don’t even believe in the concept of free will and I recognise that the former is completely futile, while the latter may effect positive change in someone’s life at some point. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/63 "2012-03-29T05:14:32Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > This talk of juries is a little irrelevant in this case. He would’ve been tried (though as he pleaded guilty he wasn’t tried anway) and sentenced by either a bench of three Magistrates or a single District Judge. > > As I said he has automatic right of appeal to the Crown Court (but only for sentence because he pleaded guilty; to appeal his conviction he would have to get his plea declared equivocal, which he probably wouldn’t have any grounds to do anyway). At the Crown Court appeals from the Magistrates Court are heard by benches consisted of one Circuit Judge (level above District Judge) AND two Magistrates, with the Circuit Judge having the casting vote. > > I don’t know enough to say for certain, but I’m guessing the offence he was convicted of was probably a summary offence and therefore he wouldn’t have had any right to a trial by jury (the offence being deemed not serious enough for a jury trial). It’s an offence triable either way. Meaning at the choice of the accused, it can be heard either by magistrates or by a Judge and Jury in the Crown Court. Here he pled guilty, so the point is moot and **jjims** and others points about whether it incited racial hatred are irrelevant. As for relief from sentence, a more likely avenue would be appeal by way of case stated to the Divisional Court (a bench of two or more High Court Judges). I would say that a custodial sentence seems appropriate in a case like this if the person has antecedents ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/64 "2012-03-29T12:37:49Z")
As **The Great Cornholio** and a few others have pointed out, having racist views and/or expressing those views does not equal inciting racial hatred. This guy’s view’s were clearly racist, but I don’t see how they were inciting anything. Shouldn’t someone be able to express their pinion about someone, even in a racist manner? Is there a law against that? There seems to not be, which is why he was hit with “inciting racial hatred”. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/65 "2012-03-29T13:26:01Z")
He’s clearly a racist arsehole of the highest order. He should not have been prosecuted IMO though. People should have the right to be racist arseholes and others should have the right to point and laugh at the idiots or send them to Coventry etc. Bringing the State into it and locking him up is wrong in a way that I find dangerous and disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/66 "2012-03-29T14:57:27Z")
Didn’t we recently have an internet troll jailed for slagging off the dead child of a grieving family, too? ---
**Author:** ![nudgenudge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@nudgenudge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nudgenudge)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/67 "2012-03-30T12:41:03Z")
Anyone who thinks that this is a just and appropriate sentence needs to turn in their liberal credentials immediately. Seems to me that the judge got swept up in the hysterical overreaction to Fabrice Mumba’s unfortunate on-screen medical emergency, the most preposterous outpouring of mawkish faux grief since Princess Diana died. And Muamba didn’t even have the good grace to die and give us the proper grieve-a-thon that we wanted. Keep Calm and Carry On, my arse. This and other events in recent days have made us Brits look more like a nation of sentimental, easily-panicked cretins. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/68 "2012-03-30T13:12:06Z")
> [@nudgenudge](#): > > Anyone who thinks that this is a just and appropriate sentence needs to turn in their liberal credentials immediately. It’s a harsh sentence, and today the High Court rejected the appeal against the sentence. Hmmm. > [@](#): > > Seems to me that the judge got swept up in the hysterical overreaction to Fabrice Mumba’s unfortunate on-screen medical emergency, the most preposterous outpouring of mawkish faux grief since Princess Diana died. And Muamba didn’t even have the good grace to die and give us the proper grieve-a-thon that we wanted. > Keep Calm and Carry On, my arse. This and other events in recent days have made us Brits look more like a nation of sentimental, easily-panicked cretins. This is world-class hyberbole. ---
**Author:** ![nudgenudge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@nudgenudge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nudgenudge)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/69 "2012-03-30T13:24:37Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > This is world-class hyberbole. You don’t think that the reaction to the Muamba incident was excessive? Shrines created to someone who hasn’t even died, and who let’s face it, most soccer fans were probably only vaguely aware of. Football shows for days afterwards prefixing the action with sentiments like “at times like these, sport hardly seems to matter”. Etc. At least one other person has actually died taking part in sport, in Britain, since Muamba’s collapse. Where’s his shrine? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/70 "2012-03-30T13:54:31Z")
> [@nudgenudge](#): > > You don’t think that the reaction to the Muamba incident was excessive? Shrines created to someone who hasn’t even died, and who let’s face it, most soccer fans were probably only vaguely aware of. Football shows for days afterwards prefixing the action with sentiments like “at times like these, sport hardly seems to matter”. Etc. Football people being concerned about a football person is hardly a shock, and fans are not noted for understatement. _shrug_ I didn’t really notice any of this: > [@](#): > > the most preposterous outpouring of mawkish faux grief since Princess Diana died Maybe Talksport was going overboard? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/71 "2012-03-30T16:42:09Z")
I am pretty absolutely opposed to sending even the most unpleasant people to prison for saying things on Twitter. > [@williambaskerville](#): > > Since you’re referring to it in response to a post about the EU, I suspect you are. The ECHR is an agency of the Council of Europe, an entirely seperate body from the EU. The Council was founded in 1949, compared to the EU’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, and is concerned solely with promoting human rights and the rule of law. Nitpick: the EU wasn’t founded by the 1957 Treaty of Rome, but by the Maastricht Treaty. You could say the present-day EU is the successor of the EEC, but in that case it makes more sense to go back to the 1961 Treaty of Paris which created the ECSC. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/72 "2012-03-30T17:00:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As **The Great Cornholio** and a few others have pointed out, having racist views and/or expressing those views does not equal inciting racial hatred. This guy’s view’s were clearly racist, but I don’t see how they were inciting anything. Shouldn’t someone be able to express their pinion about someone, even in a racist manner? Is there a law against that? There seems to not be, which is why he was hit with “inciting racial hatred”. He pled guilty to inciting racial hatred. So he obviously thinks he did, even if you don’t. Otherwise he’d have said he was, y’know “not” guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/73 "2012-03-30T17:29:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I am pretty absolutely opposed to sending even the most unpleasant people to prison for saying things on Twitter. > > Nitpick: the EU wasn’t founded by the 1957 Treaty of Rome, but by the Maastricht Treaty. You could say the present-day EU is the successor of the EEC, but in that case it makes more sense to go back to the 1961 Treaty of Paris which created the ECSC. 1951, not 1961. [QUOTE=Candyman74] He pled guilty to inciting racial hatred. So he obviously thinks he did, even if you don’t. Otherwise he’d have said he was, y’know “not” guilty. [/QUOTE] That means he thinks he’s guilty of whatever is spelled out in the statute. It doesn’t necessarily mean he actually thinks he was inciting racial hatred. I’m sure he _did_, or didn’t care, but it’s not quite the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Cornholio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed8c4c/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Cornholio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Cornholio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/74 "2012-03-30T17:59:30Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > He pled guilty to inciting racial hatred. So he obviously thinks he did, even if you don’t. Otherwise he’d have said he was, y’know “not” guilty. I imagine he thought if he _pleaded_ (there is no such word as “pled” in English and Welsh law) Guilty, this would all have been done and dusted immediately, he’d have walked out with a fine and a conditional discharge, and could have got on with his life a wiser man. It seems the sentence he got included consideration for pleading guilty! Perhaps if he’d fought the charge, he’d have had a more realistic sentence, even if did cost the taxpayer to try him. Another good reason for Plea Bargaining to be avoided like the plague in this country - you end up with jails full of people who meekly admit to things they didn’t do, because they were too scared of the consequences of being found Guilty by a jury of their peers. I’m going to set up an Argos Cenotaph in the street for Muamba, he’s our Saint Footballer of Hearts. At least he didn’t die and have to sit on the same cloud as Jade Goody. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/75 "2012-03-30T17:59:51Z")
> [@nudgenudge](#): > > Anyone who thinks that this is a just and appropriate sentence needs to turn in their liberal credentials immediately. Seems to me that the judge got swept up in the hysterical overreaction to Fabrice Mumba’s unfortunate on-screen medical emergency, the most preposterous outpouring of mawkish faux grief since Princess Diana died. And Muamba didn’t even have the good grace to die and give us the proper grieve-a-thon that we wanted. > Keep Calm and Carry On, my arse. This and other events in recent days have made us Brits look more like a nation of sentimental, easily-panicked cretins. Who the fuck is “us” Brits? It was something the media ran with for 3-4 days, stirring up whatever they could to support a narrative - as they do with any new story - and then moved on. A few people laid scarves outside a football ground - I don’t think they really knew why except they’d seen people do things like that in the past on the news, everyone else got on with their lives. Princess Diana? Do me a favour. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/76 "2012-04-01T03:07:22Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > He pled guilty to inciting racial hatred. So he obviously thinks he did, even if you don’t. Otherwise he’d have said he was, y’know “not” guilty. Do you think it might be possible that he took the admitted to the crime as part of a deal in order to risk a trial and a longer sentence? It wouldn’t be the first time an accused person did that. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/77 "2012-04-01T21:08:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you think it might be possible that he took the admitted to the crime as part of a deal in order to risk a trial and a longer sentence? It wouldn’t be the first time an accused person did that. It’s possible, but we don’t know that. All we know us that he said “Yes I did that”. We can hypothesise reasons for his admission all day, but we only have the face value of his admission to go on. So yeah, it - like anything else - is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/78 "2012-04-01T21:41:27Z")
Out of curiosity, what’s the longest possible sentence for a first time offender? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/79 "2012-04-01T21:54:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Out of curiosity, what’s the longest possible sentence for a first time offender? What, for any crime? Life, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964/80 "2012-04-02T03:55:29Z")
No, I could have guessed that one. For _this_ crime, I mean. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-56-day-sentence-for-racist-remarks-considered-sane-in-the-uk/616964.md?page=5)