# Is this a common occurrence?!? (creative suicide attempt) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651 "2009-08-07T16:06:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/41 "2009-08-08T23:55:42Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > By the definition of what? Whose definition of “suicidal person” makes reference to irrationality? > > The claim that most suicidal people are not rational is open to debate. “By definition”, aside from being literally incorrect, makes it sound as though your opinion on the matter is a fact, easily derivable by simple logic. It isn’t my opinion. I have a degree in behavioral neuroscience and psychology. About 90% of people that commit suicide do it because of clinical depression which is a mental illness and causes irrational behavior by definition and you can be involuntarily committed for it. The potential for danger to oneself or others is the standard. The other 10% are more interesting. A person may be facing a long prison sentence for an extreme white collar crime or maybe someone has their entire family killed in a car crash and doesn’t think they can go on after that. I would consider those to be rational reasons to commit suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/42 "2009-08-09T03:16:38Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It isn’t my opinion. I have a degree in behavioral neuroscience and psychology. That doesn’t show it’s not just your opinion. > [@](#): > > About 90% of people that commit suicide do it because of clinical depression which is a mental illness and causes irrational behavior by definition By the definition of what? Does somebody’s definition of mental illness require that it cause “irrational behavior”? Or do you mean the definition of _depression_? Certainly the DSM-IV definition of depression does not require “irrational behavior”. Does anything that anybody does “because of clinical depression” qualify as irrational behavior (sleeping late, calling one’s friends, taking antidepressants)? > [@](#): > > The other 10% are more interesting. A person may be facing a long prison sentence for an extreme white collar crime or maybe someone has their entire family killed in a car crash and doesn’t think they can go on after that. I would consider those to be rational reasons to commit suicide. OK, you’re entitled to your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/43 "2009-08-10T15:18:31Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > Perhaps that would have been clearer, but has equality ceased to be a symmetric relation? I think the problem is that people were trying to use symbolic shorthand for full sentences. “Tylenol != acetaminophen” was intended to be something like “Tylenol is not the only form of acetaminophen.” And then when someone else suggested “acetaminophen != Tylenol,” they were going for “acetaminophen is not necessarily Tylenol.” But both of these statements were probably too nuanced to be accurately conveyed through a simple “does not equal.” Side note: I’ve known the word “acetaminophen” since I was a young kid (yay for pharmacist grandparent), but I can never get the vowels right. I always have to look the damn thing up. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/44 "2009-08-10T16:49:24Z")
Just to clean up the acetaminophen sidetracks: Neither the Tylenol brand nor any other medication preparation of which I am aware contains an anti-emetic as some sort of safety valve. Even ipecac itself has lost its indication, for the most part. Putting an anti-emetic into potentially dangerous preparations would only worsen their toxicity. Acetaminophen overdose often presents with an initial phase of vomiting followed by a relatively quiescent phase during which the liver is being damaged. Vomiting returns again late as part of liver failure. The early vomiting phase is variable and we do not consider it a reliable sign for or against a significant ingestion. If the history is suspicious we check blood levels and if the ingestion was a point ingestion we check that level after a specific period of time to absorb has elapsed. Traditionally, ingestion of about 150mg/kg (perhaps closer to 200 mg/kg in young children because they have big livers for their body size) is a rough guide to potential toxicity, but it’s a very rough because of complicating things such as gastric emptying variability, associated food ingestion, ingestion over a long period of time instead of all the pills at once, vomiting some of the pills, and so on. Underlying liver disorders render some patients more susceptible. It is correct that an overdose of an acetaminophen/opiate combination is more likely to kill you from the acetaminophen than the opiate, although the opiate can vastly complicate the care of such patients because secondary obtundation increases risk of aspiration and ease of gastric emptying through lavage. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/45 "2009-08-12T20:33:36Z")
You know what? It appears I am the victim of misinformation. Turns out **Chief Pedant** has hit on the underlying hint of truth to the otherwise false statement. One of the possible symptoms of acetaminophen overdose is vomiting. If it is an early symptom, the vomiting will expel the drugs and reduce the amount available for ingestion. That can help mitigate the overdose. Which doesn’t make it a reliable indicator of anything or a reasonable protection against overdose. So I have learned something. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/46 "2009-08-12T22:17:41Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It’s not nitroglycerine but my sister-in-law’s mother killed herself by drinking Drano. Maybe that isn’t a good example because most people would guess that it would work but nobody knows why she chose that option. It is one of the most painful deaths you can have. Suicidal people aren’t usually rational by definition. I knew a girl in high school that took seven regular strength Tylenol pills thinking it would kill her. Of course it didn’t do much of anything. It is very common for suicide attempts to just be a cry for help or the person just can’t get it right until several tries. Some people are just really terrible at it. This past weekend I heard an interview on NPR of this dude who studies toxins in some capacity. He was talking about toxins we encoutner everyday. According to him, 12 regular strength tylenol/acetaminophine is enough to cause serious problems (I believe he hinted at death). Maybe your friend wasn;t so dumb. I have heard that overdoses of acetaminophine does a number on your liver. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/47 "2009-08-12T22:30:05Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > This past weekend I heard an interview on NPR of this dude who studies toxins in some capacity. He was talking about toxins we encoutner everyday. According to him, 12 regular strength tylenol/acetaminophine is enough to cause serious problems (I believe he hinted at death). Maybe your friend wasn;t so dumb. I have heard that overdoses of acetaminophine does a number on your liver. missed the edit window: Boy, was I late to the party! ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/48 "2009-08-12T23:04:14Z")
Back to the original drug: NTG pills taken in excess will cause extreme hypotension (low BP) which will cause death, if not treated. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Igor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Vlad\_Igor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Igor)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/49 "2009-08-12T23:26:33Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > Back to the original drug: NTG pills taken in excess will cause extreme hypotension (low BP) which will cause death, if not treated. Not to mention the worst headache in the existence of mankind. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651/50 "2009-08-13T02:21:43Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > This past weekend I heard an interview on NPR of this dude who studies toxins in some capacity. He was talking about toxins we encoutner everyday. According to him, 12 regular strength tylenol/acetaminophine is enough to cause serious problems (I believe he hinted at death). Maybe your friend wasn;t so dumb. I have heard that overdoses of acetaminophine does a number on your liver. 12 regular strength acetaminophen is about 3900 to 6000 mg, depending on whether your “regular” strength is 325 or 500 mg. In rough approximation, a known ingestion of 6000 mg in a hundred-pound individual would probably get them a ticket into medical observation\* until a four-hour post-ingestion level was ascertained. It’s unlikely to be lethal, though, unless there are are other complicating factors. \*Indications for admission for an attempt at self harm are, of course, independent of the potential toxicity of what was taken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-common-occurrence-creative-suicide-attempt/505651.md?page=2)