# Is this a cult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 12, 2007, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719 "2007-12-12T07:03:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/1 "2007-12-12T07:03:04Z")
I’m trying to find my mother’s sister. Her husband is a lay minister, and so far, this is as close as I can track them. [http://rosecreekvillage.com/](http://rosecreekvillage.com/) I’m freaking out right now, and pissed that I can’t tell her that her sister died. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/2 "2007-12-12T08:22:51Z")
I’m originally from West Tennessee and still keep in touch with some folks back there. This is news to me. The reference to “the rolling hills of West Tennessee” makes me think of the northern half of West Tennessee. That is the section most affected by the earthquakes of 1811 and 1812. You might check the newspapers the _Jackson Sun_ or the _Commercial Appeal_ to see if they have any past articles about this group. You might even interest a reporter in checking them out. You might try contacting someone at “The Farm” in Summertown, Tennessee to see what they have heard. The folks at The Farm are cool. They have been a working and successful commune since the late sixties or early seventies. They are not a religious group. Just for clarity, “West Tennessee” refers to that part of Tennessee which lies between the Mississippi River on the west and the westernmost part of the Tennessee River as it dips down into Tennessee and points south. If you want to find out about the group, you could always start by going to the cafe. It’s good that they are at least doing business with outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/3 "2007-12-12T11:14:54Z")
I can’t find anything on their website to suggest they’re not just a bunch of fundamentalist(in the not-Phelps sense)-leaning protestant Christians who decided to form a commune ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/4 "2007-12-12T11:21:16Z")
[QUOTE=Darth Nader] I’m trying to find my mother’s sister. Her husband is a lay minister, and so far, this is as close as I can track them. > **[NameBright - Coming Soon](http://rosecreekvillage.com/)** I’m freaking out right now, and pissed that I can’t tell her that her sister died. [/QUOTE] What happened when you emailed them per the site’s contact info? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/5 "2007-12-12T11:44:43Z")
This might be meaningless for you, but I’m very reassured that their three midwives are all certified and registered in accordance with state law or about to be, and they were all educated at recognized schools. That suggests to me that they don’t have the insular hallmarks of a cult - they’re not insisting that their members avoid contact with outsiders. They are also, in this one area at least, law-abiding in an area in which many of their peers are not, which is also a good indication that they’re not up to nefarious things. If you are really interested in evaluating whether or not a group is a cult in any dangerous sense of the word, I recommend using the “Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame” [(here’s a link)](http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/4089/cult.htm) as a starting point. It gives a fairly objective way to evaluate worrisome behaviors, and focuses on dangerous signs, rather than just identifying any group of people who like to hang out together a lot as a cult. But of course you’ll need to find out more about the group to use it. But I will say that, generally speaking, cults tend not to have beautiful, splashy, well-designed websites with lots of information about their group, including lots and lots of photos. Frankly, they seem like quite lovely people, living the kind of life I’d love to live - but I’m a hippie chick fan of intentional communal living. They do mention in their FAQ that the Department of Children’s Services was called out to their homestead, did some level of investigation, including talking to their children for 12 hours, and found there was no need for action. Whoever wrote their FAQ is clearly not anti-government or advocating illegal behavior. ---
**Author:** ![shammah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@shammah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shammah)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/6 "2007-12-12T13:41:21Z")
[QUOTE=Darth Nader] I’m trying to find my mother’s sister. Her husband is a lay minister, and so far, this is as close as I can track them. > **[NameBright - Coming Soon](http://rosecreekvillage.com/)** I’m freaking out right now, and pissed that I can’t tell her that her sister died. [/QUOTE] Hi. We got an email from someone who reads these boards about your post. You can email us from our web site, the one you gave in your post. There’s an “email us” link on the left side of the home page. I’ll be happy to tell her you’re looking for her as soon as I know who she is and who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/7 "2007-12-12T15:35:26Z")
[http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/16312.html?1140631315](http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/16312.html?1140631315) [http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/6436.html](http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/6436.html) It’s a cult. How dangerous is hard to say, maybe not at all. Definitely a cult, though. It appears to be an offshoot of [Tweve Tribes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Tribes_(New_religious_movement)). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/8 "2007-12-12T15:41:26Z")
They used to be called [Tsion Hadasha](http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/530.html?1133130784) The leader sounds pretty creepy. “Physical church” indeed. How very Koresh-like. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/9 "2007-12-12T15:48:58Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] They used to be called [Tsion Hadasha](http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/530.html?1133130784) The leader sounds pretty creepy. “Physical church” indeed. How very Koresh-like. [/QUOTE] Do you have any links to news articles, arrest reports, sentencing, etc.? I’m not saying I don’t believe they \*could \*be a cult, but I don’t think hearsay is enough to make me condemn them. And, yeah, I’ve been a member of groups accused of being cults, as you might well imagine. None of them was dangerous to my physical, mental, spiritual or financial well-being or met any reasonable definition of “cult” used by academics or police departments. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/10 "2007-12-12T15:59:52Z")
[QUOTE=shammah] I’ll be happy to tell her you’re looking for her as soon as I know who she is and who you are. [/QUOTE] Thanks, she called me this morning, and all is good. I was a bit upset last night, but all is better-ish right now. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/11 "2007-12-12T22:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Do you have any links to news articles, arrest reports, sentencing, etc.? I’m not saying I don’t believe they \*could \*be a cult, but I don’t think hearsay is enough to make me condemn them. [/quote] The stuff I linked to from ex-members of the cult is not “hearsay,” but direct testimony. “Hearsay” would mean they were telling you what _other_ people said. > [@](#): > > And, yeah, I’ve been a member of groups accused of being cults, as you might well imagine. None of them was dangerous to my physical, mental, spiritual or financial well-being or met any reasonable definition of “cult” used by academics or police departments. “Dangerous” is not a prerequisite for a group to be called a cult. The group in question meets the academic definition of a “New Religious Movement” (the PC word for cults) in that they are a religious community with no ties to any larger group who live in partial isolation from (and some tension with) the society around them. The self-perception of a community as being separate from their larger society (they are “chosen,” “elect,” etc.) and the expectation of other-worldly compensators as a reward for being part of the group are pretty much the main critera for the sociological, academic definition of an NRM. Technically speaking NRM’s can be either cults orsects, depending on whether they have broken off from another group or they formed on their own. In the most pedantic sense, this group is probably more accurately called a sect, since they are apparently an offshoot of another cult called “Twelve Tribes.” The classification of a group as an NRM does not mean that the group is necessarily dangerous or abusive to its members but social tension and isolation are red flags. Police definitions of cults don’t mean much since they usually don’t follow the academic critera used by sociologists. I don’t know what groups youwere involved with but just because you thought they were benign didn’t mean they weren’t cults. Most religions originate as cults. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/12 "2007-12-12T22:11:25Z")
But this is surely engaging in equivocation just as much as if one would state that “all whites are racists” – it depends on definitions that no one really uses outside of the halls of academia and is useful only to deceive. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/13 "2007-12-12T22:15:28Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] But this is surely engaging in equivocation just as much as if one would state that “all whites are racists” – it depends on definitions that no one really uses outside of the halls of academia and is useful only to deceive. [/QUOTE] I gave a factual answer to the question. How is that deceptive? I didn’t say it was dangerous. In fact, I said it might not be dangerous at all. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/14 "2007-12-12T22:29:25Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I gave a factual answer to the question. How is that deceptive? I didn’t say it was dangerous. In fact, I said it might not be dangerous at all. [/QUOTE] No, but you’re answering the words, not the spirit, of the question. It’s clear from the OP that he’s concerned about his Aunt’s accessibility, and perhaps safety, and is using the term “cult” in the standard colloquial definition of the past three or more decades, which includes an element of danger to its members. I will ask my husband, who teaches on cults and the occult at the university level, if he feels your equivocation of “New Religious Movement” to “cult” is appropriate and standard in academia and report back later tonight. I believe it’s a meaningless answer for this thread, factual or not. “Sect” I’m prepared to accept. “Religious Movement” (new or otherwise), sure. But I don’t think you’re using “cult” like most people use cult. Which is fine, but I just want everyone to be clear about that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/15 "2007-12-12T22:41:35Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] No, but you’re answering the words, not the spirit, of the question. It’s clear from the OP that he’s concerned about his Aunt’s accessibility, and perhaps safety, and is using the term “cult” in the standard colloquial definition of the past three or more decades, which includes an element of danger to its members. I will ask my husband, who teaches on cults and the occult at the university level, if he feels your equivocation of “New Religious Movement” to “cult” is appropriate and standard in academia and report back later tonight. I believe it’s a meaningless answer for this thread, factual or not. “Sect” I’m prepared to accept. “Religious Movement” (new or otherwise), sure. But I don’t think you’re using “cult” like most people use cult. Which is fine, but I just want everyone to be clear about that. [/QUOTE] I’m using the word CORRECTLY. I’m sorry you have a problem with that. (And how exactly does one teach “the occult” exactly? That’s a meaningless word in acdemia) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/16 "2007-12-12T22:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’m using the word CORRECTLY. I’m sorry you have a problem with that. [/QUOTE] You’re using it correctly according to one small group of people who don’t own the word, and not the definition the OP appears to be concerned with. > [@](#): > > (And how exactly does one teach “the occult” exactly? That’s a meaningless word in acdemia) He teaches ON the occult (among other things), as a topic: western esotericism as religion, theory and practice, occultism in modern media and entertainment, secret societies, history, legend… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/17 "2007-12-12T22:54:16Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] I will ask my husband, who teaches on cults and the occult at the university level, if he feels your equivocation of “New Religious Movement” to “cult” is appropriate and standard in academia and report back later tonight. [/QUOTE] It’s not an “equivocation.” Cults and sects are bith subsets of NRMs. That is standard and that is the what I was taught “at the university level.” Ask your husband if he’s ever heard of Stark and Bainbridge. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/18 "2007-12-12T22:55:17Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] You’re using it correctly according to one small group of people who don’t own the word, and not the definition the OP appears to be concerned with. He teaches ON the occult (among other things), as a topic: western esotericism as religion, theory and practice, occultism in modern media and entertainment, secret societies, history, legend… [/QUOTE] That’s a distinction without a differnce since the word still has no academic definition. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/19 "2007-12-12T23:07:08Z")
Neither does “dinosaur”. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719/20 "2007-12-12T23:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] That’s a distinction without a differnce since the word still has no academic definition. [/QUOTE] Either I don’t know what you’re talking about or you don’t. There are plenty of courses at plenty of universities on those topics. [College of Charleston:](http://www.cofc.edu/~rels/courses.htm) > [@](#): > > RELS 330 Western Esotericism > This course will cover a range of topics in esoteric studies from classical Greco-Roman religions to contemporary Britain and America. Possible topics covered: Magic, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, Alchemy, Kabbalah, Grail, Knightly Orders, Tarot, Rosicrucian and Masonic Groups, Theosophy, Secret Societies, Magical Orders, Occultism, and Eastern Religious influences. [Sweet Briar College](http://www.religion.sbc.edu/major.html) > [@](#): > > RELG 301 (3) - Religion, Science, and Occultism > > Prerequisite: One course in religion or the history of science. Are there critical differences between scientific and religious ways of knowing and are there ways in which humans have tried to bridge the gap between science and religion? This course will examine the philosophy of science as a means of understanding modern intentional revivals of ancient religious traditions, including modern witchcraft, fertility practices, various divination and fortune-telling techniques, the development of parapsychology and New Age religion. Offered alternate years. [University of North Texas](http://www.unt.edu/catalog/grad/philc.htm) > [@](#): > > 1. Seminar in Philosophy of Social Science. 3 hours. Questions on explanations, observable human purposes and science of valuation. Contrasting science, ideology and occultism. Darwinism as conceptual scheme. The “causal” status of symbols and verbal behavior. Debates about objectivity, Verstehen, phenomenology and behaviorism, referring to K. Popper, G. Nettler, L.A. White, B.F. Skinner, C. Geertz, T. Kuhn, P. Winch and M. Weber. [DePaul University](http://condor.depaul.edu/~firstyr/focal/courses/w04.html) > [@](#): > > 214 23061 M W 03:30 PM - 05:00 PM Winslade,Jason L Lincoln Park > OCCULTISM, POLITICS&POPULAR CU > This course explores occultism as a Western phenomenon, consisting of magical and mystical practices that penetrate everyday life. For some practitioners, it is a religion, for others a form of self-exploration and actualization, and for still others, a site of personal politics and activism. We will discuss the structures and philosophies of the secret society, of initiation as a cultural performance, and the practice of ritual magick in its various forms. We will trace the connections between magick, Wicca, secret societies, and popular culture, in texts ranging from the dollar bill to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. From [the biography of a faculty member at Brown:](http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Slavic_Languages/people/facultypage.php?id=10123) > [@](#): > > About ten years ago a number of scholars at various universities began to create a new field of study devoted to the history and theories of magic, occultism and esoteric movements, and I began to teach courses in those areas at the same time. At present I offer three such courses, Magic in the Middle Ages (University Course 82), Women, Magic and Power, 1800-1960 (University Course 83), and Esoteric Russia (Russian 109). I have also directed several independent studies in the general area of magic and magical religion. Almost all of my current scholarly research is in this field instead of Slavic studies. The University of Exeter offers a [Master’s Degree](http://www.blavatskytrust.org.uk/html/ma_exeter.htm) in the topic. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-cult/429719.md?page=2)