# Is this a hate crime? What should be done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2001, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376 "2001-06-11T03:35:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/1 "2001-06-11T03:35:05Z")
_From United Press Internaitonal Saturday, June 8, 2001_ > [@](#): > > \*\*Schoolboy Kicked Unconscious Over Confederate Book \*\* > > WASHINGTON (UPI) - A 13-year-old Houston boy who had checked out a book about Robert E. Lee was kicked in the head and sent unconscious to the hospital, a Southern heritage organization reported. The boy’s mother and lawyer believe the actions of government school officials set the stage for the attack. > > […] > > Hill was concerned by this turn of events. She described her son as a good student and not a troublemaker, but a boy who loves his Southern heritage. He is not a racist, Hill said. In fact, “he is half Lebanese.” > > Nevertheless, Ryan was suspended for three days and forced to apologize to all the black students for being a “racist.” Payne wrote that this “set in motion the wheels of persecution that led to Ryan’s beating.”… > > Copyright 2001 by United Press International. So, is it OK to simply ignore this incident? If not, what should be done? {Edited article down. Posting the full text is probably infringing _someone’s_ copyright, even if it’s not UPI. --Gaudere} [Edited by Gaudere on 06-11-2001 at 11:48 AM] ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/2 "2001-06-11T05:02:23Z")
Oy. This world is a mess. I was going to dismiss it as outlandish right-wing bull, but the fact that it has a UPI byline… oy. Yeah, it’s a hate crime - the kid was targeted because of his beliefs. The kids who did this to him should be brought up on charges. I do wonder what the school’s policy was on displaying the confederate flag. I know a lot of southern schools have strict rules regarding it. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/3 "2001-06-11T05:03:59Z")
Well, I’ll be. My birthday is the same day as Confederate Memorial Day in Texas! And, I don’t think this would count as a hate crime, but IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/4 "2001-06-11T05:09:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\* > Yeah, it’s a hate crime - the kid was targeted because of his beliefs. The kids who did this to him should be brought up on charges. > \*\* I agree. December, please keep us posted on this story, if it’s not too much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/5 "2001-06-11T05:33:15Z")
Actually, he wasn’t even necessarily attacked because of his beliefs - kid checked the book out of _their own library_ for pete’s sake. Granted, him wearing the flag into school earlier and having to make a public apology for it (which seems like a gross overreaction, much like what happened to the kid who wore the “straight pride” t-shirt in another school) didn’t help, but still - it was an assigned report. And it was the school’s book. Jeez. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/6 "2001-06-11T05:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*Oy. This world is a mess. > > Yeah, it’s a hate crime - the kid was targeted because of his beliefs. The kids who did this to him should be brought up on charges. \*\* Is that a legal criteria for a hate crime? Maybe I’m juts unfamiliar with the laws but in states that have them I thought they only covered things like religion, race, nationality, and in some states sexual orientation. Other then religion I’ve never heard advocates of hate crime laws speak about beliefs. If so the Unabomber and ALF are guilty of hate crimes. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I do wonder what the school’s policy was on displaying the confederate flag. I know a lot of southern schools have strict rules regarding it. > > Esprix \*\* I graduated from a Texas high school in 1994. So far as I know there was no policy specifically regarding the Confederate Battle Flag. Not that my school flew it or anything. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/7 "2001-06-11T05:45:35Z")
Sorry, should have clarified - it’s my own WAG. IANAL. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/8 "2001-06-11T06:16:13Z")
No part of the political spectrum has a monopoly on extremist idiots. They should be prosecuted and punished like any other self-appointed thought-police attacker. Where’s the great debate? ---
**Author:** ![bare](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bare/32/471_2.png) [@bare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bare)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/9 "2001-06-11T06:26:43Z")
december, can you post a link about your article, I am unable to find any reference to it on the wire services. By the way, what do YOU think? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/10 "2001-06-11T06:44:03Z")
> [@](#): > > December, please keep us posted on this story, if it’s not too much trouble Yes, and also, if it’s not too much trouble, could you provide us with a link? Posting an article _in toto_ is somewhat frowned upon by the powers that have to be concerned with covering the Chicago Reader’s backside, and I’m not sure whether tacking the copyright statement on at the end eliminates that issue. > [@](#): > > I was going to dismiss it as outlandish right-wing bull, but the fact that it has a UPI byline… oy **Esprix** , the UPI bit had me going at first, too, although it sounded a bit off. But I just couldn’t let it slide because of the term _government school_. Any term that loaded is not going to find it’s way onto one of the major newswire services (AP, UPI, Reuters) unless it’s part of an attributed quote. IMHO. So, I did a search on Yahoo, and I found that [United Press International](http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=%22United+Press+International%22) is the guys who go by UPI, and file newswire stories that the mainstream press carries, whereas [Universal Press International](http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=%22Universal+Press+International%22&hc=0&hs=0) seems to be a syndicator. This search led to a column by Georgie Ann Geyer, a conservative columnist, and not a journalist. Well, upon closer inspection, I can’t get all the way to the column, just to a message board sponsored by [http://www.freerepublic.com](http://www.freerepublic.com) . I am not of a mind to simply dismiss this alleged occurrence. But I am suspicious of some of the circumstances surrounding its appearance on this messag board. On hitting Preview, I find that some of my suspicions have been anticipated… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/11 "2001-06-11T07:06:49Z")
:o Mr Attention-to-detail just noticed that the cited source is in fact _United Press International_. Please forgive my inattention. But I want a link anyway, cause, you never know who might have changed something. ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/12 "2001-06-11T08:04:17Z")
Just for reference purposes: > [@](#): > > **Hate Crime:** “A criminal offense committed against a person or property which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against race, religion, ethnic/national origin group, or sexual orientation.” — U.S. Department of Justice, FBI > > **Bias Incident:** “An incident that is not punishable by law, but promotes an atmosphere of intolerance and fear.” — US Department of Justice, FBI ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/13 "2001-06-11T14:05:29Z")
That “article” has more violations of the UPI style guide than anything I’ve ever seen attributed to them. Count me, uh, skeptical until I’ve seen a link to a legit news source. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/14 "2001-06-11T14:40:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\*Count me, uh, skeptical until I’ve seen a link to a legit news source. \*\* I don’t blame **Manhattan** for skeptism. The article seems unusual, to say the least. On the other hand, it’s hard to believe that NewsMax would provide a false attribution to UPI. Here’t the NewsMax link: [http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/8/183849.shtml](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/8/183849.shtml) I had found the report on Free Republic, attributed to UPI. I copied and pasted every word. If I get any more info I’ll post it to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/15 "2001-06-11T14:58:31Z")
As someone who works in the business, I can assure you that a UPI dateline on a story posted on a message board means nothing. It neither means that the story came from UPI, or that if it did, that the information in it is real or factual. All of the major newswires – UPI, Reuters and the Associated Press – have been fooled in the past year or two by fake press releases. A competitor of ours, InternetWire, notoriously sent out a press release attributed to Emulex Corporation which turned out to have been issued by a speculator trying to shore up a short position on Emulex stock, which caused the stock to lose 60% of its value in a few hours. Reuters and AP both ran the release. It also appeared on Yahoo! Also, several times over the past few years, message boards have posted fake stories with fake datelines and attributions. Just recently, someone posted a press release on a message board falsely attributed to my company’s wire. It happens all the time, and we take action right away. FWIW, I went to Dow Jones News Retrieval, which archives UPI and several other news sources, including the Houston Chronicle. I searched the last year’s worth of archives using several keywords from the OP and came up with nothing. And, as **manhattan** notes, this baby is chock full of style violations. My opinion? It’s a fake. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/16 "2001-06-11T15:00:40Z")
Shouldn’t there already be heavy penalties for kicking someone unconscious? I don’t feel the need to punish the perps differently because of their motives. If they were robbing him, would that somehow be not as bad? I really have a problem with hate crime laws in general. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/17 "2001-06-11T15:10:03Z")
**manhattan** you are correct to be skeptical. I **DID** do a search on the named agency “Southern Legal Resource Center”, and found [them](http://www.cheta.net/slrc/advice.htm) From \*\*their \*\* website: > [@](#): > > Nature and Extent of The Right of Students In The Public School System To Wear Clothing, Emblems and Symbols of The Confederacy on School Premises During Hours When School Is In Session. and oddly enough, their own site does not list a ‘press release’ about the incident in the OP. Ah, preview is my friend. **december** linked his source. Again, the source is **not** United Press International, but instead another, shall we say, less than mainstream news source? Here’s the [UPI article](http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=192627) Seems clear to me that the UPI in this case has done a ‘cut and paste’ of the news release they say is from the Southern Legal Resource Center, has attempted to confirm with school sources (to no avail, according to the article). So, the data from the article comes from the kid, his mom and lawyer. they mention a prior incident with this kid and a sanction about dress codes, in the interest of completeness, here’s the [dress code for the school](http://www.cfisd.net/general/dresscode.htm) from which is: > [@](#): > > Students cannot wear garments with visual or written messages that are likely to cause a material or substantial disruption to the school environment. Examples of such prohibited visual or written messages include, but are not limited to, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, weapons, violence, vulgar or obscene language or images, and/or insults to race, religion, gender, or ethnicity. So, in summation, you have a noted news source reporting on information that came directly from a different(not news) source, and **that** data consists of one side of an issue. One would have thought that if there had been a serious incident at a school, the local news sources would have been picking up on it, instead of the ever so helpful ‘Southern LEgal Resource Center’. I’d wait for a more clear picture of the incident before offering comment on it. ---
**Author:** ![rebelyell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9bcb4/32.png) [@rebelyell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rebelyell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/18 "2001-06-11T21:11:28Z")
Apparently the boy in question possesses a black belt in a martial art but he offered no defense except to protect his face. School administrators decided that that was enough to call the aggession “mutual” so no action will be taken against his attackers. I’m sorry I can’t locate the cite but I believe I saw the story at the Fox News website. I could be mistaken but I also believe I saw a different report on the same story elsewhere. I think this points out one of the flaws with Hate crime legislation which is to apply the laws only when the hate is directed towards a favored group. It’s hate if I attack a member of a minority but let a black in Cincinatti drag an albino from her car just because her skin is white and it’s just assault. Said legislation also requires the courts to determine the intent or motive of the perpetrator making a person’s thoughts subject to criminal prosecution. And ultimately, aren’t all violent crimes “hate crimes?” Another point that needs to be made concerns the Confederate battle flag. To many people this is a symbol of their heritage and a tribute to their ancestors who gave their lives during the war of northern agression. Unfortunately the heritage group has allowed the flag to be coopted by racist groups and the flag is now seen as a symbol of oppression. I feel that this is tragic and will fight to restore it to a place of honor in the history books, to take it back from the KKK and others who would use it to oppress. (IMHO, I felt that the flag would have made an excellent banner to rally those fighting for an end to apartheit in South Africa but that’s another thread.) Once again though we find a double standard at work. Why is is permissable to wear a shirt that proclaims “For Us, By Us” but Ryan Hill was persecuted, harassed and assaulted because he wore a 1" x 2" patch with the battle flag? More and more the concept of free speech only seems to apply to politically correct speech. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/19 "2001-06-11T21:27:52Z")
with all due respect, **rebelyell** , unless you can provide a link to the story, I’ll decline your kind offer to speculate any more than has already gone on here. I’ve searched enough on this topic already, especially since I"m not the OP. I found the ‘original’ version on UPI, which states that it’s a summation of a press release by the Southern Legal Resource Center. I then found the link to the Souther Legal Resource Center, and oddly enough, it **doesn’t** have anything like that in it’s ‘press release’ section. **and** a careful reading of the article also shows that **all** it is, is the press release (which comes directly from the child’s mom and lawyer) and attempts to verify any segment of the story was met with resistence at best. No other news source has lept up on this one. I also, in the interest of fair game, attempted to find any source in the Houston Papers that referred to any incident like that, but declined to pay out $20 for the privelge. So, in summation, you’re entitled to your opinion etc, but you should be prepared to back it up with evidence. (by the way, no, categorically not all violent crimes are ‘hate crimes’) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376/20 "2001-06-11T21:42:51Z")
Okay, so: The Great Debate here isn’t whether or not this is a hate crime, it’s **whether or not it actually happened.** :shakes head, sighs heavily: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-hate-crime-what-should-be-done/68376.md?page=2)