# Is this a "Pit comment"? second try **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 20, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058 "2012-08-20T14:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/61 "2012-08-24T00:39:52Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > They have a problem around here, . . . > > Which works out fine for 99% of the posters, 99% of the time. But for some of us, some of the time, it’s a fine edge to walk. I don’t see where “they” (we) have a problem. By your estimate, the policy works for 98.01% of the situations we face. = = = > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > However, if someone wants to characterize an enemy as a (to use a totally hypothetical example) “Large Angry Negro,” that’s racist. I see no reason to buy into that claim. Negro is outdated, but I know a number of people who use the word self referentially. Large and angry are pretty neutral in themselves. I can certainly see a situation in which the context made “Large Angry Negro” insulting, but asserting that the phrase is inherently racist would appear to be a projection of personal beliefs that are not binding on the rest of society or this message board. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/62 "2012-08-24T00:47:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I see no reason to buy into that claim. Negro is outdated, but I know a number of people who use the word self referentially. Large and angry are pretty neutral in themselves. Do you know people who use “Negro” self-referentially and unironically? And do you really not think that attaching “Large” and “Angry”–together creating a common stereotype of black men–to the word “Negro” indicates anything? > [@](#): > > I can certainly see a situation in which the context made “Large Angry Negro” insulting, but asserting that the phrase is inherently racist would appear to be a projection of personal beliefs that are not binding on the rest of society or this message board. It would appear to be nothing of the sort, and it’s astonishing that you’d suggest otherwise. I invite you to ask this question of those self-referencing “Negroes” you talked about earlier whether they see anything racist in calling someone, disparagingly, a Large Angry Negro. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/63 "2012-08-24T04:42:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you know people who use “Negro” self-referentially and unironically? Yes. What sort of bubble do you live in where no one uses that word? (I suppose if you know no one under the age of 50, that might work.) > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And do you really not think that attaching “Large” and “Angry”–together creating a common stereotype of black men–to the word “Negro” indicates anything? More projection. I have already noted that context could create a meaning, but simply the conjoining of those words would not. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It would appear to be nothing of the sort, and it’s astonishing that you’d suggest otherwise. I invite you to ask this question of those self-referencing “Negroes” you talked about earlier whether they see anything racist in calling someone, disparagingly, a Large Angry Negro. I note that you have moved the goalposts in order to elicit the answer you want. Why insert the word “disparagingly” into the discussion, now, when you originally insisted that the phrase was intrinsically racist? If you set up a context that implies anger or disdain, you could use any phrase to be insulting. Your original claim was that the phrase was racist. Now you are setting conditions. Fine: I propose that it is spoken by a large, jovial, black man talking over a beer about his disgust over the poor performance of the local sports team. Still racist? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/64 "2012-08-24T08:30:38Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > We’re all clear that that’s what you would prefer. > > Everyone but you seems to have accepted that that’s not going to happen. Hardly everyone but me. You can have your way, of course, because 1) the power to change the rules is 100% yours and 2) 98% of the posters haven’t thought about, don’t give a whack about, don’t want to get into a discussion about, etc. this particular issue. The hardest thing about moderating a MB on a daily basis, when I did it for several years, was to suppress my own personal whims and devise rules that were clear, even if not to my own tastes from time to time. I had to tolerate all sorts of whack-jobs, annoying twits, people who (it seemed to me) deliberately misunderstood others, etc., just because I brought a sense of equality and basic fairness to the role. I recognized that I had a lot of power over the people who posted on my site, and I tried to use that power sparingly and more fairly than I often wanted to. If you’re free from any of these scruples, you can do as suits yourself–no one is going to stop you, least of all powerless me. All I can do is point out what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/65 "2012-08-24T10:47:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Yes. What sort of bubble do you live in where no one uses that word? (I suppose if you know no one under the age of 50, that might work.) Your ridiculous insult aside, I really don’t know anyone who uses the word to reference themselves. > [@](#): > > I note that you have moved the goalposts in order to elicit the answer you want. Why insert the word “disparagingly” into the discussion, now, when you originally insisted that the phrase was intrinsically racist? If you set up a context that implies anger or disdain, you could use any phrase to be insulting. Your original claim was that the phrase was racist. Now you are setting conditions. Fine: I propose that it is spoken by a large, jovial, black man talking over a beer about his disgust over the poor performance of the local sports team. Still racist? In that case, it’s ironic, and of course racist phrases can be used ironically by folks who are victims of the racism as a means to subvert them. This is like racism 101. As for moving the goalposts, no, this is clarifying for the willfully ignorant, clarifying something I didn’t think was necessary to clarify. If there are other things you turn out to turn a blind eye to deliberately about the hypothetical, I’ll be happy to clarify them for you as well. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/66 "2012-08-24T11:08:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your ridiculous insult aside, I really don’t know anyone who uses the word to reference themselves. No insult intended. I know many people, most of them older, who continue to use Negro in reference to themselves. I am surprised that you know none. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As for moving the goalposts, no, this is clarifying for the willfully ignorant, clarifying something I didn’t think was necessary to clarify. If there are other things you turn out to turn a blind eye to deliberately about the hypothetical, I’ll be happy to clarify them for you as well. No need to “clarify” that you are inventing scenarios to support your baseless claim. I can see that easily enough. At any rate, this hijack serves no purpose, so I’m dropping it, particularly since you want to accuse me of being insulting while you hurl insults. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/67 "2012-08-24T11:09:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No need to “clarify” that you are inventing scenarios to support your baseless claim. I can see that easily enough. [I am sure you can](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=662452). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/68 "2012-08-24T11:18:11Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Hardly everyone but me. You can have your way, of course, because 1) the power to change the rules is 100% yours and 2) 98% of the posters haven’t thought about, don’t give a whack about, don’t want to get into a discussion about, etc. this particular issue. > > The hardest thing about moderating a MB on a daily basis, when I did it for several years, was to suppress my own personal whims and devise rules that were clear, even if not to my own tastes from time to time. I had to tolerate all sorts of whack-jobs, annoying twits, people who (it seemed to me) deliberately misunderstood others, etc., just because I brought a sense of equality and basic fairness to the role. I recognized that I had a lot of power over the people who posted on my site, and I tried to use that power sparingly and more fairly than I often wanted to. If you’re free from any of these scruples, you can do as suits yourself–no one is going to stop you, least of all powerless me. All I can do is point out what you’re doing. So, because you prefer an environment where rules lawyering is the order of the day, we are the bad guys for not acceding to your whims? You claim that “98% of the posters haven’t thought about it.” Where do you get your numbers? This sort of discussion has been going on for 13+ years. Why should we accept that only 2%, (many of whom oppose your position), have thought about it? And, since, among the 2%, many do argue for our position rather than yours, why should we simply accede to your preferences? Despite your clear martyrdom, we are not engaged in “whims.” We simply disagree on one point regarding rules and Moderation. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/69 "2012-08-24T14:15:02Z")
What you call “rules lawyering” I call an arbitrary and nonsensical system run solely for the convenience and privileging of Mods. The vast majority of posters here are okay with this, as I’ve learned over the years, and I don’t care to dispute whether this vast majority is 75% or 99%. (I only know it is some figure below 100%.) Even if it were 1%, you could still run the system as you choose, anyway. It seems to me that moderating a MB is hard work, and I respect hard work. You take shortcuts, and I don’t have much respect for that. You’ll have to learn to get along without my personal respect, **Tom**. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/70 "2012-08-24T14:31:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. There is no special rule regarding the word “racist.” Permitting name-calling outside the BBQ Pit would lead to the the deterioration of the board. That some posters would like a special exemption to be allowed to hurl the epithet that identifies their particular _bête noire_ does not change the broader principal that is being applied. Yes, there is, seeing as **Marley** , an administrator, has said repeatedly that calling someone racist is not an insult. Also, I am not aware of a definition of name-calling that includes saying mean things about a group of people. Name-calling specifically refers to naming someone, i.e., something you can only do on an individual basis. Heck, you know it’s not name-calling, since name-calling is a personal insult, and thus a warnable offense. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/71 "2012-08-24T16:37:31Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > They have a problem around here, which is that they dislike specifying rules, prefering to leave it up to Mods’ discretion, their perception of tone, the context in which words or phrases appear, the phase of the moon, etc. to be the final determinant of whether someone has or has not warranted a Mod note, a warning, a suspension, a banning. > > Which works out fine for 99% of the posters, 99% of the time. But for some of us, some of the time, it’s a fine edge to walk. I’d much prefer they made up real rules, actual words or phrases you may or may not use, and then revise those or tweak those rules as needed, bearing in mind the need to err on the side of generosity in interpreting those rules. This policy would rid this place eventually of actual trolls and jerks, who need to break whatever rules there by, by the mere dint of their existence. (I.e., an actual jerk cannot stop himself from being rude on a consistent basis, an actual troll will consistently say things he or she doesn’t believe.) I completely disagree with you. There can certainly be some specifics, but so much of human interaction is ambiguous and subjective that no amount of rules will cover all scenarios. For every rule you create I could create 10x more ways to stay within the letter of the rule but break the spirit of the rule. Here’s an example, let’s say the rule is “you may not call any poster a racist”. I could do this: **PRR** , **U** ranium is **R** eally **A** ve **R** y r **A** dioa **C** t **I** ve **S** ubs **T** ance. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/72 "2012-08-24T17:41:21Z")
Why do you think that this would not break the rule? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/73 "2012-08-24T18:14:07Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Which works out fine for 99% of the posters, 99% of the time. But for some of us, some of the time, it’s a fine edge to walk. I find it’s much easier to just not walk close to the edge. > [@](#): > > I’d much prefer they made up real rules, actual words or phrases you may or may not use, and then revise those or tweak those rules as needed, bearing in mind the need to err on the side of generosity in interpreting those rules. The nature of human interaction. Unless you want the list of rules longer than the rest of the message board. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [I am sure you can](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=662452). So you claim you’re discussing a “totally hypothetical example” but you really have a specific incident in mind? Yeah, that’s fair. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > You’ll have to learn to get along without my personal respect, **Tom**. I’m sure he’s crying over his tea. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/74 "2012-08-24T22:50:24Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > It seems to me that moderating a MB is hard work, and I respect hard work. You take shortcuts, and I don’t have much respect for that. Actually, you are the one asking for shortcuts. You seem to want the staff to put together a comprehensive list of “bad things” that will be deemed insulting, then any time a “bad thing” on the list is posted, we can just point to the list and issue a Warning, regardless of context. Meanwhile, all you who believe in rules lawyering can skate around the “bad” list by using synonyms that did not make it onto the list, complaining if you are Mod Noted or Warned because your “bad thing” was not on the “bad thing” list. Not going to happen. I prefer to actually expend the energy to look at posts in the contexxt that they are submitted, considering the actors and the language and the history and then make a judgment. If you wish to believe that that is easier than simply pointing to a list of bad things and robotically enforcing those rules, you are welcome to that opinion. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > You’ll have to learn to get along without my personal respect, **Tom**. I have not had your “personal respect,” (for whatever that might be worth), for years since you exploded into a furious rant over the fact that I observed in The BBQ Pit that the noted troll **badchad** was, indeed, a troll, even though I never took any Mod action against him because he was not breaking explicit rules in Great Debates. (Funny, how you want only explicit rules except when you don’t.) ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/75 "2012-08-24T22:59:33Z")
You don’t want to get into another discussion about \*\*Badchad \*\* with me, I promise you. But I would like to know what “you want only explicit rules except when you don’t” means. I want explicit rules all the time, applied consistently and without regard for your own personal biases. If that’s difficult for you, you have my sympathies–modding is real hard work sometimes, though fun other times. If you want to just wing it, make up rules as you go along (did you confer with \*\*Marley \*\*on the use of “racist” yet, or is that not worth doing?), and every once in a while fulminate when someone gets under your skin, you’ll only get my queries. It’s frustrating for you to get questions you can’t answer, and for me to ask questions that never get resolved clearly, so on that account, you do have my sympahy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/76 "2012-08-24T23:19:54Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So you claim you’re discussing a “totally hypothetical example” but you really have a specific incident in mind? Yeah, that’s fair. Believe it or not, I was being sarcastic when I typed “totally hypothetical example,” figuring the hyperbole of “totally” make the sarcasm obvious, and also figuring that a massive recent trainwreck of a thread like that would be known to the mods. I considered using an actual hypothetical (something about sneaky inscrutable Asians), but figured I’d head off charges of hypothetical navel-gazing by using a recent real example. I did not intend to deceive. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/77 "2012-08-25T00:21:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, there is, seeing as **Marley** , an administrator, has said repeatedly that calling someone racist is not an insult. > > . . . > > Heck, you know it’s not name-calling, since name-calling is a personal insult, and thus a warnable offense. You will have to take that up with Marley. I generally ruled it as an insult. In regards to your second point, you should probably note that I am not all that quick to hand out Warnings. I am more interested in keeping threads on topic, where the most posters can have the most enjoyment, than I am in simply seeing how many Warnings I can hand out in a day. Over-the-top insults such as “motherfucker” will pretty much always garner a Warning. Words posted in anger that seem to be more expressions of unguarded thought–like “racist” or “unhinged”–are more likely to receive a Mod Note unless the poster has already been told to tone it down. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/78 "2012-08-25T01:01:29Z")
And since you guys prefer making up rules as you go along, depending on your interpretation of context, your mood at the time, how much alcohol you’ve ingested recently, etc. you’re perfectly content to leave us guessing if we’ve just violated a SD rule or just written a clear post when we use a word such as “racist.” Maybe I’ll flip a coin to decide… ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/79 "2012-08-25T02:05:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Good job of misdirection, but as long as you included “unhinged” among a series of unflattering comments, you can rest assured that the word “racist” was not the actual trigger for the Mod Note. When you find posts in which “unhinged,” “unreasoning,” and “wholly irrational” have been accepted without comment as remarks directed toward other posters, we can go back and revisit the “racist” remark. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > And since you guys prefer making up rules as you go along, depending on your interpretation of context, your mood at the time, how much alcohol you’ve ingested recently, etc. you’re perfectly content to leave us guessing if we’ve just violated a SD rule or just written a clear post when we use a word such as “racist.” > > Maybe I’ll flip a coin to decide… Perhaps you missed **tom’s** clarification of why you were **NOTED** , for your comments. That means NOT WARNED. It’s post #17 in this thread. It had nothing to do with the word “racist.” But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058/80 "2012-08-25T02:27:23Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > And since you guys prefer making up rules as you go along, . . . Utterly false. The basic rule is “Don’t be a jerk.” If you are posting insulting comments, it should be obvious, even to you, that you are out of line. Nothing in this thread indicates that I have “made up” a rule, either as I went along or on any other occasion. I am sorry that you are more invested in rules lawyering than actually participating in good faith, but since you already know that your gamesmanship is not going to fly, perhaps you should simply stop engaging in that behavior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-pit-comment-second-try/632058.md?page=5)