# Is this a religious contradiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450 "2010-02-18T06:36:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/41 "2010-02-18T23:33:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It sounds good, but I’m still not sure. It depends on us knowing enough of the mind of God to know that he loves us, but how much of the mind of God do we know? Presuming the christian god and the relative accuracy of the bible, we know what’s in the text - or rather, what we end up deciding the relvent bits of the text are. Which can easily include that God loves us, since it’s right there in the text. (One could also decide that God is a homogenous mass composed of love particles - there’s a fair bit of wiggle room there.) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/42 "2010-02-18T23:35:59Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I think i’ve asked you this one before, so I apologise if it’s a repeat; if we cannot know the mind of God before we recieve the Holy Spirit, then how can we honestly and correctly search for it and attempt to make ourselves suitable for it? For me it was knowing that my way was not working and that God’s way must be better, as it was the only one left that I could try. I took God’s way sight unseen. In prayer I said something like, 'Lord teach me your ways, whatever it takes (and that was a lot BTW), if you want to lock me up in a monastery copying scriptures by hand for the rest of my life that is far better then anything I could come up with on my own." After that prayer, about a hour later, was the very first time I heard God and Knew it was Him, it was very clear. He said “Restore” & “I want to free you” > [@](#): > > You can’t look for something if you don’t know what you’re looking for. You wouldn’t be able to understand the father saying he loves you if you didn’t know you were suppposed to pick up on auditory clues, that the sounds he was making were meaningful. As I posted above God actually spoke in a way that I could directly understand \_ God came down to my level, He wanted to make Himself known, and to show what He was going to do, instead of teaching me His way that He really wanted to speak. It was like hugging a newborn instead of saying I Love you, which would be not understandable at that age. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/43 "2010-02-18T23:39:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It sounds good, but I’m still not sure. It depends on us knowing enough of the mind of God to know that he loves us, but how much of the mind of God do we know? Further, without anthropomorphizing, how would be even know how such a mind defines “love”? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/44 "2010-02-18T23:41:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > For me it was knowing that my way was not working and that God’s way must be better, as it was the only one left that I could try. You must be a lot older than me, because there are a hundred billion trillion ways that I haven’t tried yet - it’s going to take me a very long time to try out all the possibilities until there’s just one way remaining. If my current way falls through, next on the list is “pretend everything is edible”, followed by “marxism” followed by “say everything in pig latin.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/45 "2010-02-18T23:41:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > After that prayer, about a hour later, was the very first time I heard God and Knew it was Him, it was very clear. He said “Restore” & “I want to free you” Was it definitely a male voice? Was it real deep, or more of a tenor? How old did he sound? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/46 "2010-02-18T23:46:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > For me it was knowing that my way was not working and that God’s way must be better, as it was the only one left that I could try. Have you tried my way? It seems pretty good so far for me. 😉 > [@](#): > > I took God’s way sight unseen. In prayer I said something like, 'Lord teach me your ways, whatever it takes (and that was a lot BTW), if you want to lock me up in a monastery copying scriptures by hand for the rest of my life that is far better then anything I could come up with on my own." > > After that prayer, about a hour later, was the very first time I heard God and Knew it was Him, it was very clear. He said “Restore” & “I want to free you” Here’s a couple of questions, then. Was what you got what you expected? That is to say, what you had in mind before you believed, what you thought God was about, was that the same as what you later discovered about God? And if it was not the same, then your plea for aid was technically an inaccurate one; on that basis, why would God select to answer your plea in such a manner and not one that I might make, now, given that my idea will probably also be incorrect? > [@](#): > > As I posted above God actually spoke in a way that I could directly understand \_ God came down to my level, He wanted to make Himself known, and to show what He was going to do, instead of teaching me His way that He really wanted to speak. It was like hugging a newborn instead of saying I Love you, which would be not understandable at that age. How inaccurate would you say a plea could be before God would not respond to it? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/47 "2010-02-18T23:52:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You must be a lot older than me, because there are a hundred billion trillion ways that I haven’t tried yet - it’s going to take me a very long time to try out all the possibilities until there’s just one way remaining. If my current way falls through, next on the list is “pretend everything is edible”, followed by “marxism” followed by “say everything in pig latin.” Everytime you try your choices will be more and more limited, see the prodigal son. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/48 "2010-02-18T23:55:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Was it definitely a male voice? Was it real deep, or more of a tenor? How old did he sound? Actually it was like a voice, not that you heard through the air, but like as if you just heard it through the air. Yes it was male if I had to place it, not real deep, though I would not place the voice in the tenor range, age I’d place somewhere between a adult to the ancient of days. It was really amazing. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/49 "2010-02-18T23:59:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Everytime you try your choices will be more and more limited, see the prodigal son. Actually I can go back and try prior methods again, so I’ll never run out of options. (See the prodigal son - he got to try being at home again a second time.) As a complete aside, the prodigal son story is awesome, becuase it completely invalidates the idea that I will be held accountable for my actions. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/50 "2010-02-18T23:59:58Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Have you tried my way? It seems pretty good so far for me. 😉 yes, and it will for a while. > [@](#): > > Here’s a couple of questions, then. Was what you got what you expected? No I expected a mean God, and to be His slave. I found absolute Love and He adopted me as His son. > [@](#): > > That is to say, what you had in mind before you believed, what you thought God was about, was that the same as what you later discovered about God? No totally different > [@](#): > > And if it was not the same, then your plea for aid was technically an inaccurate one; on that basis, why would God select to answer your plea in such a manner and not one that I might make, now, given that my idea will probably also be incorrect? How inaccurate would you say a plea could be before God would not respond to it? It’s not the accuracy, but the pleading for mercy of the heart. God looks at the heart, and my plea was **for deliverance from my ways** \* to whatever His way was - even if I didn’t understand His ways. - this would be a form of repentance, admission that my all my ways are and have been wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/51 "2010-02-19T00:04:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > yes, and it will for a while. That seems odd. I’m pretty sure I hadn’t talked to you before you became a believer. How is it that you know (and knew) what my way was? > [@](#): > > No I expected a mean God, and to be His slave. I found absolute Love and He adopted me as His son. Out of interest, what led you to your prior conclusion? Why did you think you’d be under the thumb of a tyrant? And (though this is very much a personal question, and so you’re quite fine in telling me i’m out of line) what about your life 'til then was so terrible that slavery under an omnipotent taskmaster would be better than it? > [@](#): > > It’s not the accuracy, but the pleading for mercy of the heart. God looks at the heart, and my plea was **for deliverance from my ways** to whatever His way was - even if I didn’t understand His ways. Ah, so the aim of the plea doesn’t matter (or at least not so much) as making an honest, open plea with true desire to be enlightened? The intent is the important part? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/52 "2010-02-19T00:04:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually it was like a voice, not that you heard through the air, but like as if you just heard it through the air. And the difference is…😕 > [@](#): > > _Yes it was male if I had to place it, not real deep, though I would not place the voice in the tenor range, age I’d place somewhere between a adult to the ancient of days. It was really amazing_. I take it you have tapes of how Socrates et al sounded? If so, would you upload them somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/53 "2010-02-19T00:05:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually it was like a voice, not that you heard through the air, but like as if you just heard it through the air. > > Yes it was male if I had to place it, not real deep, though I would not place the voice in the tenor range, age I’d place somewhere between a adult to the ancient of days. It was really amazing. I’m…sure it was, just like the rest of your miracle-filled life. _sigh_ I think we can just dispense with this incredible derailment, and continue with the adult conversation, already in progress. **RedFury** asked how we can know how God even defines love-any takers(amongst those of you who don’t have Him on quickdial, that is)? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/54 "2010-02-19T00:15:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **RedFury** asked how we can know how God even defines love-any takers(amongst those of you who don’t have Him on quickdial, that is)? If he’s omnipotent, then everything that happens to us is his will (wether he’s doing it or merely allowing it) and is also not pirsuant to some other goal, so we can directly infer that everything that happens to us is, in his mind, a direct expression of love. This might lead some to believe that he’s rather warped. Alternately it might lead you to believe he cares about some _part_ of us (like an invulnerable spirit, or our kidneys) that isn’t bothered by the sometimes harrowing experiences the rest of us experience. It would be entirely correct to see this as _not_ loving us (but instead loving just that part), though, so it might not satisfy the question. Alternatively if god is _not_ omnipotent, we have no direct way of telling what’s his will and what he’s just powerless over, so that leaves us with no direct way of knowing what he means by the term. In either case, one might find answers in a text - I don’t myself know if any are there, but I have no doubt that a creative enough person could find them regardless. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/55 "2010-02-19T00:32:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If he’s omnipotent, then everything that happens to us is his will (wether he’s doing it or merely allowing it) and is also not pirsuant to some other goal, so we can directly infer that everything that happens to us is, in his mind, a direct expression of love. Again, debatable. For he might know what and how _we_ think of love (and that’s not even a universal amongst humans) but that does not necessarily translate into his definition. > [@](#): > > _This might lead some to believe that he’s rather warped. Alternately it might lead you to believe he cares about some part of us (like an invulnerable spirit, or our kidneys) that isn’t bothered by the sometimes harrowing experiences the rest of us experience. It would be entirely correct to see this as not loving us (but instead loving just that part), though, so it might not satisfy the question._ Your whole response is premised on the same flaw/limitation priorly mentioned: anthropomorphism. My response is much simpler: based on what’s given (a mind we, by definition, can’t comprehend), there is no way of knowing. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/56 "2010-02-19T00:39:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Again, debatable. For he might know what and how _we_ think of love (and that’s not even a universal amongst humans) but that does not necessarily translate into his definition. > > Your whole response is premised on the same flaw/limitation priorly mentioned: anthropomorphism. What? No. This is the exact opposite of what I said - which is that by the fact that (omnipotent) God allows babies to be eaten by timberwolves, or whatever, that proves that that event is not inconsistent with what God thinks of as his love for us. This has precisely nothing to do with what _we_ think of as love; it’s a recognition of the fact that with an omnipotent god, thing as _he_ wants them to be. Not how we do. The closest this gets to anthropomorphism is that it assumes that love means _anything_ to god, and that it’s something roughly akin to an emotion. (If it’s a particle that he’s homogenously composed of, that’s different of course.) > [@RedFury](#): > > My response is much simpler: based on what’s given (a mind we, by definition, can’t comprehend), there is no way of knowing. Except that we **do** know, presuming he’s omnipotent, as a logical side effect of omnipotence. His omnipotence itself exposes his mind to us, at least to the degree of telling us what he wants, because omnipotence is all about having things as you want them. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/57 "2010-02-19T01:15:22Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > What? No. This is the exact opposite of what I said - which is that by the fact that (omnipotent) God allows babies to be eaten by timberwolves, or whatever, that proves that that event is not inconsistent with what God thinks of as his love for us. This has precisely nothing to do with what _we_ think of as love; it’s a recognition of the fact that with an omnipotent god, thing as _he_ wants them to be. Not how we do. OK, fair enough, my bad. But then you’ve just diluted the human concept of “love” to mean anything and everything that happens on earth. Not sure how that helps in practical terms. > [@](#): > > \*The closest this gets to anthropomorphism is that it assumes that love means _anything_ to god, and that it’s something roughly akin to an emotion. - Indeed. For I see nothing in your prior description of complete randomness – as is, granted – that would include any sort of emotion as we know them > [@](#): > > _Except that we **do** know, presuming he’s omnipotent, as a logical side effect of omnipotence. His omnipotence itself exposes his mind to us, at least to the degree of telling us what he wants, because omnipotence is all about having things as you want them._ Could God think of a time when he was not omnipotent? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/58 "2010-02-19T04:00:31Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > To go with your earlier example, your infant child does not and cannot comprehend the motivations for your actions, or even that there is a “you” at all. That certainly does not mean that any love you have, or love you show by your actions, does not exist. But to the infant, it doesn’t. How can it define something it does not recognise? I suppose I was somewhat extravagant in my denial of understanding. I am not entirely in the position of the tabula rasa infant with respect to knowing God. I think that the far more common mistake made by men is to think that every revelation on the nature of God is understanding of the mind of God. Perhaps that blinding flash of comprehension seems that way, because of the prior darkness. To me, the dim twilight of my perceptions shine more brightly than all the human knowledge I have ever gained. But, in the humiliations that my pride have brought to me, I have found another wisdom. I cannot reveal God Himself. I can only bear witness to my experience. And most of what I can do in that regard is by actions, not words. > [@](#): > > I’m not asking for hard evidence, hard proof. If your answer is simply “I have faith that God is loving because I have a feeling that it is so” then that is a good enough answer for me on this. But something along those lines still indicates a level of faith in understanding. I have faith in the Love of God because He has sent His Son, Jesus, who is Christ, to me. He gave me the message that He loves me. He did not give me a message for you. I have read the scriptures, both those of current canon, and others. I believe that if you open your heart to the stories of these men who sought to know God, and make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord, He will come to you as well. If that is not something you can do, I can only tell you that He wants me to love you, and that your sin is before Him, and I have no authority over it. To the utter skeptic, I can only say, love each soul you meet as if it were the same loving god of all that I have described. Whether I am right or wrong, still, you will find that love itself is good, and you will grow in spirit. Be good. It is a good idea. Tris ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/59 "2010-02-19T12:52:02Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > I suppose I was somewhat extravagant in my denial of understanding. I am not entirely in the position of the tabula rasa infant with respect to knowing God. I think that the far more common mistake made by men is to think that every revelation on the nature of God is understanding of the mind of God. Perhaps that blinding flash of comprehension seems that way, because of the prior darkness. To me, the dim twilight of my perceptions shine more brightly than all the human knowledge I have ever gained. But, in the humiliations that my pride have brought to me, I have found another wisdom. I cannot reveal God Himself. I can only bear witness to my experience. And most of what I can do in that regard is by actions, not words.I have faith in the Love of God because He has sent His Son, Jesus, who is Christ, to me. He gave me the message that He loves me. He did not give me a message for you. I have read the scriptures, both those of current canon, and others. I believe that if you open your heart to the stories of these men who sought to know God, and make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord, He will come to you as well. > > If that is not something you can do, I can only tell you that He wants me to love you, and that your sin is before Him, and I have no authority over it. > > To the utter skeptic, I can only say, love each soul you meet as if it were the same loving god of all that I have described. Whether I am right or wrong, still, you will find that love itself is good, and you will grow in spirit. Be good. It is a good idea. > > Tris According to the psalmist,(Psalm 81 or 82 depending on what Bible you use) men are Gods (Jesus backed this up) so everyone is God and a human is God. So that solves a lot of why people think God is telling them something? If that is so, it is the inner being in each person thinking and doing what God is thinking, doing, or saying! Each person’s idea of what God says or does vary according to their own life experiences, culture of where they were born, what they were taught or read. The Golden rule of the Buddah," Do Unto others as you would have done unto you" is a good lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/60 "2010-02-19T15:52:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “God loves us and wants what is best for us.” > “We cannot know the mind of God.” Before that can be answered, one must first show proof of the existence of a god of any kind. Until that happens, you might as well make that statement about your favorite cartoon character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450.md?page=4)