# Is this a religious contradiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450 "2010-02-18T06:36:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/81 "2010-02-20T02:41:33Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Your links suggest to me that the answer is _both_; you not only don’t understand the word, and you are witnessing. Slam Dunk! ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/82 "2010-02-20T02:46:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Great. I’ll simply add that you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. > > Best always. I’ll explain, k? You told **kanicbird** , _“You CANNOT debate faith with logic anymore than you can make a square circle.”_ Yet when pressed you gave me a link that used _logical_ as a descriptor -----an adjective----- for _proof._ Your own cite doesn’t make your case. Show me substantively------without witnessing----- how logic can’t be used in faith. I’ll be waiting. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/83 "2010-02-20T02:49:12Z")
[I’ll get us started, k?](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logic) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/84 "2010-02-20T02:59:56Z")
In all fairness, I don’t have a lot of time, and I really wanted to get back to my discussion with **Revenant Threshold** so maybe I shouldn’t have posted. However…without regard to doctrine or ideology, it occurs to me that 2 of the most misused words in GD are _rational_, and _logic_. I’ve wondered if people simply don’t understand the words, or if their subjective beliefs (in some parts that’s called _faith_…) have blinded them to the plain truth that its mighty hard to say that _my_ **subjective beliefs** _reek_ of logic, and _yours_ are _bereft_ of it. It leaves me scratching my head, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/85 "2010-02-20T03:06:22Z")
I’ll add one more thing… It’s entirely appropriate to say _kanicbird’s_ subjective beliefs are illogical as a way of saying they’re flawed. But when you say that faith------ **by definition** ------- cannot be a product of rational, reasoned logic, you are either ignorant of the definition of the word[s] or you’re displaying the greatest of faiths. (blind as it often is…) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/86 "2010-02-20T03:34:19Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I’ll explain, k? > > You told **kanicbird** , \*“You CANNOT debate faith with logic anymore than you can make a square circle.” In my experience a huge part of debate is paying attention to the side your debating with. So you might want to read that post again. 'cause that is not who I was talking to. That said, statement still stand. Try using logic to dissuade a Jehovah’s Witness on blood transfusion issues. > [@](#): > > Yet when pressed you gave me a link that used logical as a descriptor -----an adjective----- for proof\* Nothing as nefarious as that. A simple Firefox extension linking to [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) > [@](#): > > _Your own cite doesn’t make your case. Show me substantively------without witnessing----- how logic can’t be used in faith._ Again, I how no idea where you get “witnessing” out of anything I’ve written. But if you didn’t understand it the first time, logic, on its own\* has little to no chance of persuading a believer that his faith is nonsensical. You’d first have to get said person to understand why logic trumps faith and how. Sure, easy enough for you and I to know as much. For the truly faithful, not so much. If this weren’t truth, we’d all be a variation/combination of atheism and agnosticism. And unless I am mistaken – which would make it a mistake of Biblical proportions ;)-- that is far from the case. > [@](#): > > I’ll be waiting. Trust your accommodations keep you in the utmost of comfort as I refuse to be blamed for any physical discomforts, or worse, injuries, for I am not a nocturnal mouselike animal flying with a pair of membranous wings (AKA bat) Fact: most of my life takes place in daylight. Enjoy the rest of your evening – and stay away from sunlight, garlic and stakes! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/87 "2010-02-20T03:42:05Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > …But when you say that faith------ **by definition** ------- cannot be a product of rational, reasoned logic, you are either ignorant of the definition of the word[s] or you’re displaying the greatest of faiths. (blind as it often is…) Definition I’ve been using through this entire hijack, which btw, is rather the most common of all (Google it): [**Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence**](http://www.tfd.com/faith) Right. Away I must. _Really_. _::::yaaawn::::_ Apologies… ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/88 "2010-02-20T04:18:09Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Definition I’ve been using through this entire hijack, which btw, is rather the most common of all (Google it): > > [**Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence**](http://www.tfd.com/faith) Ah, but it not resting upon logical proof doesn’t mean that logical _arguments_ cannot be used, nor that there is _zero_ logical proof at all. Your definition doesn’t go as far as you seem to be going. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/89 "2010-02-20T04:19:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **begbert2** With the post above RT and I were posting, from what he posted I truly believe that \*\*He \*\*did ask God and God will answer (and is answering). A promotion! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/90 "2010-02-20T05:21:48Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I would say that, if God does have a message to me, then to declare that you cannot yourself or through what I might learn from you be a part of that message, seems unreasonable. Well, if the path I walk, and the life I live seem to you to have in them some message of God, or His nature, then I am joyful, for it seems to me that those things might well be the message He gave me for you. But I distrust human authority over faith, and will make no claim to have any. For a person so much involved with words, and so easily give to sharing my views, witnessing with words is a dangerous thing. I do it. I do it a fair bit, in fact. Because God is a big part of what my life is, and what my choices are. But I don’t feel anointed in any way. The mantle of the apostles is far too heavy for me. Yet, neither can I deny my Lord, and not speak of Him. So, I limit myself to what I am sure of. And if you seek to know Him, I shall indeed encourage you, and offer prayer for you. Lord, Jesus, who is Christ the Son of God, have mercy upon this, thy servant Rev. Give to him that same joyous moment that you have given to me, when questions and doubts, unanswered, fall away, understanding becomes simple acceptance of love. Miracles are your provenance, my Lord, but in your name I ask it. And for each who seek you here in this unlikely place, I ask the same, only that they might know of your love. Amen. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/91 "2010-02-20T06:30:28Z")
> [@](#): > > **Czarcasm** :…Mysteries are for solving, not embracing. Maybe that depends on what you mean by “embracing.” For me it is a sort of celebration. I celebrate (stand in awe of, laugh at, find joy in) the Mandelbrot Set. Mathmatically, I don’t understand it. But when I find that the pattern of branches of trees in a forest can be indicative of the pattern of the forest itself, it just wipes out my mind. And to find these patterns in all of nature is such a mystery! I both embrace it and I hope that even more can be discovered about it. I am the same way about religious mysteries. They make me joyful – even when I can’t know the answers yet. And maybe the source of all of the mysteries is the same. I don’t know. The mysteries so far seem to be endless. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/92 "2010-02-20T12:13:59Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > A promotion! 😃 It may be too early to understand, but welcome to the family of God. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/93 "2010-02-20T13:56:30Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > Well, if the path I walk, and the life I live seem to you to have in them some message of God, or His nature, then I am joyful, for it seems to me that those things might well be the message He gave me for you. But I distrust human authority over faith, and will make no claim to have any. > > For a person so much involved with words, and so easily give to sharing my views, witnessing with words is a dangerous thing. I do it. I do it a fair bit, in fact. Because God is a big part of what my life is, and what my choices are. But I don’t feel anointed in any way. The mantle of the apostles is far too heavy for me. Yet, neither can I deny my Lord, and not speak of Him. So, I limit myself to what I am sure of. > > And if you seek to know Him, I shall indeed encourage you, and offer prayer for you. Lord, Jesus, who is Christ the Son of God, have mercy upon this, thy servant Rev. Give to him that same joyous moment that you have given to me, when questions and doubts, unanswered, fall away, understanding becomes simple acceptance of love. Miracles are your provenance, my Lord, but in your name I ask it. And for each who seek you here in this unlikely place, I ask the same, only that they might know of your love. Amen. > > Tris I am sure God is grateful to you for making Him aware of things He already doesn’t know! If God has to be told of the needs of anyone then He isn’t any more powerful or all knowing than any human. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/94 "2010-02-20T13:59:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It may be too early to understand, but welcome to the family of God. What God? And, isn’t every one supposed to be children of God? Is it a little egotistic to think you are the one to welcome people to a family they are already in? ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/95 "2010-02-20T16:14:17Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What God? > And, isn’t every one supposed to be children of God? Is it a little egotistic to think you are the one to welcome people to a family they are already in? We are ALL children of God is all she was saying so lets stop all the foolishness. God must be looking down and shaking his head… saying stifle children you are giving me a big headache… ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/96 "2010-02-20T16:25:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > In my experience a huge part of debate is paying attention to the side your debating with. So you might want to read that post again. 'cause that is not who I was talking to. > > That said, statement still stand. Try using logic to dissuade a Jehovah’s Witness on blood transfusion issues. It would be _easy_ to use logic to dissuade a JW on blood transfusion issues. Whether I would be _effective_ or not is not a failure of logic, nor an implicit statement that JWs (or any other believer) reject appeals to logic. In fact, this hypothetical JW may very well have come to his stance on blood through the use of logic. And this is where I think you----and many other Dopers who brandish the word _logic_ or _rational_--------don’t understand the word. Best as I can tell, people come to different beliefs through different methods; some through caprice of various sorts, some through ignorance and bias, (including peer pressure), and some through well informed, reasoned logic. It was said of the Apostle Paul, _“But Saul kept on acquiring power all the more and was confounding the Jews that dwelt in Damascus as he proved logically that this is the Christ.”_ (NWT) [Amplified Bible Translation.](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:22&version=AMP) But logic is nothing more than a _science_, a _method_, a _process_. By saying that people of faith reject logic implies (although it is often _explicit_) that they are driven solely by their _feelings_, and are incapable-----or unwilling---- to think critically; to use reason, rationality or logic in establishing their subjective beliefs. At best this is presumptuous. At worst it is ignorant. > [@](#): > > Again, I how no idea where you get “witnessing” out of anything I’ve written. But if you didn’t understand it the first time, logic, on its own\* has little to no chance of persuading a believer that his faith is nonsensical. You’d first have to get said person to understand why logic trumps faith and how. Sure, easy enough for you and I to know as much. For the truly faithful, not so much. See this is where you leave me convinced you neither understand the [correct use of the] word, or your own witnessing. The counterargument to faith is not logic. (for anyone but the truest of true believers) Logic says nothing about faith. The counterargument may use logic, but the substance of that argument is something else. Logic is just the \*method. \* > [@](#): > > If this weren’t truth, we’d all be a variation/combination of atheism and agnosticism. And unless I am mistaken – which would make it a mistake of Biblical proportions ;)-- that is far from the case. No fear of mod action here. You’re in the correct forum for witnessing. raindog shouts, “Can I get a _witness_!” > [@](#): > > Trust your accommodations keep you in the utmost of comfort as I refuse to be blamed for any physical discomforts, or worse, injuries, for I am not a nocturnal mouselike animal flying with a pair of membranous wings (AKA bat) Fact: most of my life takes place in daylight. > > Enjoy the rest of your evening – and stay away from sunlight, garlic and stakes! allrighteythen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/97 "2010-02-20T16:34:14Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > We are ALL children of God is all she was saying so lets stop all the foolishness. God must be looking down and shaking his head… saying stifle children you are giving me a big headache… It must be nice to know the mind of God. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/98 "2010-02-20T16:54:03Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Definition I’ve been using through this entire hijack, which btw, is rather the most common of all (Google it): > > [**Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence**](http://www.tfd.com/faith) > > Right. Away I must. > > _Really_. > _::::yaaawn::::_ > > Apologies… In post #96 I cited a text that said Paul “proved logically” that Jesus was the Messiah. Here too, your own cite that faith “does not rest on logical proof.” In both cites the emphasis was on proof, and logic is simply the method. Is that not clear to you? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/99 "2010-02-20T17:15:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It must be nice to know the mind of God. Exactly! A succinct way of putting what I’ve been saying all along. * * * **raindog** , Whatever dude. You “win” as well. Have a candy. On me. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450/100 "2010-02-21T02:07:03Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What God? > And, isn’t every one supposed to be children of God? Is it a little egotistic to think you are the one to welcome people to a family they are already in? [QUOTE=Psalm 2:7] I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son ; **today** I have **become** your Father [/QUOTE] Bold mine. We are all children of the same universe, but it is not until God adopts us that we become children of the sovereign King. Before this we have other fathers such as in: [QUOTE=John 8] 41You are doing the things your own father does." “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.” {The Children of the Devil} 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 **You belong to your father, the devil** , and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-religious-contradiction/529450.md?page=6)