# Is this a solution to the Kobyashi Maru test? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, movies, star-trek-paramount\ **Created:** [January 17, 2024, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233 "2024-01-17T17:53:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/81 "2024-01-25T16:17:53Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Or they make 'em swear not to tell. Or, they just rely on the age old desire to see others suffer the same fate you did. I mean, we still have people going on snipe hunts, and looking for a bucket of prop wash. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/82 "2024-01-25T16:18:58Z")
I don’t understand why it can be taken more than once. What’s the point if you know you’re going to lose? Or was Kirk not supposed to tell Saavik but did anyway due to his feelings about it? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/83 "2024-01-25T16:37:58Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Or was Kirk not supposed to tell Saavik but did anyway due to his feelings about it? Knowing Kirk, this seems pretty likely. He treated most of the Starfleet regulations like guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/84 "2024-01-25T16:40:14Z")
It’s a simulator - a big video game - its intended to show how you will handle command decisions, etc in the face of overwhelming odds - I assume they also tell the various cadets they should prepare for it (in some way) - they all think - or atleast should think - that they can win - and its how they behave thru it that tells them what they need to know. How you respond in those situations - keeping your calm, inspirational speeches, staying focused - not running away to cower in teh water closet, etc - is far more important than winning. So - why not run the simulator multiple times (time/resources being what they are) - we do that all the time now. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/85 "2024-01-25T16:45:47Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - why not run the simulator multiple times (time/resources being what they are) - we do that all the time now. Also, this is probably just one simulation among many. I mean, they have to learn things like “Pilot out of space dock” at some point. So they probably run this one as a surprise. “This is just a routine patrol and navigation simulation, OH LOOK KLINGONS!!!” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/86 "2024-01-25T16:57:04Z")
#thumbs up emoticon goes here# ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/87 "2024-01-25T16:59:07Z")
My fanwank would be that the simulation is significantly modified from test to test (someone has probably already said this). Sometimes it’s Klingons, sometimes Romulans. Sometimes it’s a neutral zone situation, sometimes something else. The number, type and objective of the enemy changes, as does the situation of the crippled ship. So, as soon as the cadet hears “Kobyashi Maru” he or she thinks, “Oh, shit!,” knowing that there’s an unwinnable situation in front of him, but he doesn’t know what the details or consequences are, only that a decision _must be made._ The fact that the cadet knows it’s unwinnable is the whole point. What do you do when you have no good options but you are in command? In an actual situation, “hey, this isn’t fair” won’t be a comfort to your crew. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/88 "2024-01-25T17:13:11Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > The fact that the cadet knows it’s unwinnable is the whole point. Except when we first see it, it’s clear that the cadet had no idea what was happening. “The test wasn’t fair; there was no way to win!” ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/89 "2024-01-25T17:43:30Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Except when we first see it, it’s clear that the cadet had no idea what was happening. “The test wasn’t fair; there was no way to win!” Yes! I gave myself a false memory that when Saavik hears the words Kobayshi Maru, she utters a quite “damn”, but that comes later when she assesses the situation. She has no idea during the sim that she can’t win, but quickly, being Vulcan, concluded after it ended that there was no way to win. I’d actually like a command candidate that kept trying. There’s a balance between ego and ignorant futility. A captain that faces a real no-win scenario in real life can’t just punt. If he doesn’t “believe in the no-win scenario”, he has a better chance to survive. And if it is truly no-win, well, he’s dead and beyond criticism. There are lots of little no-win scenarios in life that people make all the time. For example, in _From The Earth to the Moon_ episode Apollo 11, Neil and Buzz are running a landing simulation, that they have crashed many times. In the episode Neil gives mission control their _own_ test. He doesn’t abort the landing even though he knows it’s doomed. He wanted to see how MC would handle it. And they failed. They let him and Buzz crash. The “no-win” was that either the crew dies, or the mission aborted. But now, Neil has a measure of MC’s “character”. How much command discretion they give him. If the real landing went bad, it was good to know that. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/90 "2024-01-25T19:20:42Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Except when we first see it, it’s clear that the cadet had no idea what was happening. “The test wasn’t fair; there was no way to win!” Easily resolved. The cadet who had no idea it was unwinnable…_forgot_ that it was the no-win scenario. You didn’t think I’d have an answer, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/91 "2024-01-25T19:21:56Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > _forgot_ that it was the no-win scenario. You didn’t think I’d have an answer, did you? I hear that also works if you’re being charged with armed robbery. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/92 "2024-01-25T19:23:57Z")
You’d be amazed how many attorneys don’t use this strategy. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/93 "2024-01-25T20:41:44Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > > [@Stratocaster](#): > > > > The fact that the cadet knows it’s unwinnable is the whole point. > > Except when we first see it, it’s clear that the cadet had no idea what was happening. “The test wasn’t fair; there was no way to win!” She’s a Lieutenant - not a cadet. It’s entirely possible this is more akin to ‘finals’ and not something that would be shared among ‘cadets’ , since presumably upon passing - these people would move on in their careers. (I am removing from my mind all references to it from the Kelvin timeline) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/94 "2024-01-25T20:54:52Z")
Can I respectfully request that people cease countering my posts with facts? Very annoying. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/95 "2024-01-26T00:17:32Z")
That’s a no-win request. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/96 "2024-01-26T00:53:29Z")
Cadets are clearly out of control as seen when we reach TNG times. See all that Red Squad and Nova Squadron nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233/97 "2024-01-26T01:39:13Z")
Most illogical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-solution-to-the-kobyashi-maru-test/996233.md?page=4)