# Is this a "with cause" termination?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [March 23, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532 "2010-03-23T21:10:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/1 "2010-03-23T21:10:59Z")
I know two married people who work at the same company, both of whom are secretly looking for new jobs. Jane has been offered a job in another state (Denver, CO) and intends to accept it. Joe is still waiting to hear back from a few interviews. Now, they are concerned that if Jane gives her 2 weeks notice, the company will (rightly) surmise that Joe is also looking for a job in Denver and fire him, even though he would lie and say he has no intention of moving. Obviously, they are within their rights to terminate anyone at any time, this being an at-will state.
The question is whether this would be recorded as a “with cause” or “without cause” termination. There is nothing in the employee handook or their employment contracts which addresses this. The big worry is that Joe will take a few months to find a job and that potential employers will be turned off by a “with cause” termination on his record, perhaps dooming him to unemployment permanently.
Anybody with expertise in these sorts of things have an opinion of which way it would go or what the repercussions would be?
---
### Author:  [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/2 "2010-03-23T21:19:49Z")
Why does Jane have to tell them where she is going?
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/3 "2010-03-23T21:21:16Z")
Recorded where? If it’s an at will state, they don’t need to list it either way. They could probably say it for cause if they wanted to, though. He would totally have it coming too.
---
### Author:  [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/4 "2010-03-23T21:24:50Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#):
>
> Why does Jane have to tell them where she is going?
Exactly. She can resign and say nothing about where she’s going.
And to Dio’s point, depending on the laws of the state, they could fire him for no reason at all. And if they need a cause to fire, I’m sure they could find one having nothing to do with Denver.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/5 "2010-03-23T21:24:54Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#):
>
> Why does Jane have to tell them where she is going?
She doesn’t, but she has to tell them when. Presumably, Joe would have to provide his current job as a reference while looking for a new job, so the odds are someone’s going to call his employer. Most likely they’ll just say he was terminated with no further explanation. Whether they say it was “for cause,” or not, prospective employers are going to know he was fired either way. It would be best for him to just give his notice at the same time as Jane rather than trying to lie and manipulate his employer (which they’d see through anyway).
---
### Author:  [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/6 "2010-03-23T21:26:59Z")
I’ve never used a current employer as a reference, though I have used trusted colleagues at a current employer. It’s worked fine. In fact, quite a few prospective employers will ask whether or not it’s OK to contact the current employer.
Strongly disagree that he should give his notice at the same time as his wife.
---
### Author:  [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/7 "2010-03-23T21:30:06Z")
Recorded in the sense that it would be written down, if only to show that the company did not owe severance pay, which is provided, by contract, in the case of “without cause” but not “with cause”. If a potential employer were to call HR to check employment history, it would be in his file and mentioned.
As for not saying where her new job is, wouldn’t that just arouse even more suspicion? It is well known that they ask in the exit interview and try to bully people into telling by claiming they will withold the final paycheck, which they can’t do, but nevertheless say they can.
---
### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/8 "2010-03-23T21:31:56Z")
Why doesn’t Jane just give her two weeks notice two weeks before the move? That way Joe can give his notice at the same time.
Nothing says she has to tell them as soon as she decides.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/9 "2010-03-23T21:32:08Z")
> [@Beadalin](#):
>
> I’ve never used a current employer as a reference, though I have used trusted colleagues at a current employer. It’s worked fine. In fact, quite a few prospective employers will ask whether or not it’s OK to contact the current employer.
No one’s ever bothered to confirm your employment history?
> [@](#):
>
> Strongly disagree that he should give his notice at the same time as his wife.
He should lie to his employer?
---
### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/10 "2010-03-23T21:33:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> He should lie to his employer?
He should give his employer every consideration his employer would give him.
---
### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/11 "2010-03-23T21:35:48Z")
IF he were applying for unemployment, I’m fairly certain that no state would consider that to be ‘for cause’. I don’t think any other future employers are going to give it much thought either.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/12 "2010-03-23T21:36:45Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#):
>
> He should give his employer every consideration his employer would give him.
How do you know what kind of consideration his employer would give him? We’ve been given no indication that they would treat him unfairly. Do you think they’d be unjustified in firing him for lying to them about an intention to ditch them?
Do you think he has no obligation to behave like a responsible, professional adult, regardless of what he thinks of his employer?
---
### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/13 "2010-03-23T21:44:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> How do you know what kind of consideration his employer would give him?
I don’t. That lack of knowledge has no bearing on my statement, though, right?
> [@](#):
>
> We’ve been given no indication that they would treat him unfairly.
Correct. However, in my experience, companies act in their own best interests. It is certainly not unreasonable to assume that a company would make a decision to let someone go and delay telling him if it suits their purposes.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you think they’d be unjustified in firing him for lying to them about an intention to ditch them?
How would they know he is lying?
> [@](#):
>
> Do you think he has no obligation to behave like a responsible, professional adult, regardless of what he thinks of his employer?
It’s not what he thinks of his employer that matters, it’s what the employer _really is_ that matters. And giving an employer every consideration that he would receive \*is \*behaving in a professional manner.
---
### Author:  [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/14 "2010-03-23T21:47:00Z")
Companies aren’t dumb. If Jane gets a job and gives two weeks of COURSE they are going to know Joe is going to leave.
Companies don’t like to pay unemployment. So they wouldn’t fire Joe anyway.
In terms of with or without cause and unemployment, I’ve dealt with 3 states, FL, IL and Maryand and in all the cases I’ve dealt with there is no real rhyme or reason. These companies I worked for all had a policy of fighting every unemployment claim, justified or not.
For instance, in one company (in IL) we let an employee go for always being late. This employee appealed and lost. A few months later we let another employee go, same identical problem. He appealed and this arbitrator said, “No, look he TRIED to get there.” He got his unemployment.
Same thing, same state, same laws, different arbitrators different results.
I agree with others who said, “Don’t tell them.” All you should put in any resignation letters is "Due to opportunities elsewhere, I am resigning my postion as of today. The last day I will be working is March 31… I thank you for the opportunity to work with your company.
That’s IS IT. Never say more than that. That is enough.
Most new employers understand if you don’t want to give a current employer as a reference. But sometimes it gets back, especially if it’s a small industry.
The good news is arbitrators are more sympathetic now than in the past, and they are more willing to rule for you in a case than in the past.
Finally why would you let any company bully you, if you’re leaving. If they give you the slightest hassle just say, “If my working out a 2 week notice is going to be an issue, you can choose to waive it and I’ll go now.” That’ll shut them up everytime.
How would anyone be able to bully you if you didn’t tell them where you were going. Once you quit they hold no power over you anymore? I don’t get it.
Finally remember 2 weeks notice is a COURTESY, if you don’t get two severence if you’re fired, than that company is not even entitled to that courtesy.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/15 "2010-03-23T21:49:21Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#):
>
> I don’t. That lack of knowledge has no bearing on my statement, though, right?
> Correct. However, in my experience, companies act in their own best interests. It is certainly not unreasonable to assume that a company would make a decision to let someone go and delay telling him if it suits their purposes.
> How would they know he is lying?
>
> It’s not what he thinks of his employer that matters, it’s what the employer _really is_ that matters. And giving an employer every consideration that he would receive \*is \*behaving in a professional manner.
No, juts cut the bullshit. Trying to scam an employer by shining them on about an intention to stay when you’re really going to ditch them is unprofessional and sneaky and duplicitous and perfectly reasonable grounds for firing somebody.
---
### Author:  [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/16 "2010-03-23T21:49:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> How do you know what kind of consideration his employer would give him? We’ve been given no indication that they would treat him unfairly. Do you think they’d be unjustified in firing him for lying to them about an intention to ditch them?
>
> Do you think he has no obligation to behave like a responsible, professional adult, regardless of what he thinks of his employer?
Now this is an interesting question. Leaving aside the complication of spouses working for the same company. If one’s spouse seeks work that will require a household move, at what point is it ethically correct to inform one’s employer? When a job is initially sought? After an offer is made? When an offer is accepted? When 2 weeks notice is given?
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/17 "2010-03-23T21:51:41Z")
When one gives notice, the other should have the decency to give the same notice.
---
### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/18 "2010-03-23T21:56:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> No, juts cut the bullshit. Trying to scam an employer by shining them on about an intention to stay when you’re really going to ditch them is unprofessional and sneaky and duplicitous and perfectly reasonable grounds for firing somebody.
It is absolutely no different than a company deciding to ditch you go and not telling you until it suits their purposes. None at all. And, at any rate, as I noted above, all Jane has to do is give notice two weeks before the move and it’s all moot.
What if you were just thinking about leaving? Do you owe your employer the truth about that? What if an offer came out of the blue. Would you hop on your Vespa and trot on over to the boss’s house to see what he thinks?
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the venality of an American company. I’ve been burned too many times by outright lies to do anything other than look out for #1.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/19 "2010-03-23T21:58:11Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#):
>
> It is absolutely no different than a company deciding to ditch you go and not telling you until it suits their purposes. None at all.
So what? How does that make it ok?
> [@](#):
>
> What if you were just thinking about leaving? Do you owe your employer the truth about that? What if an offer came out of the blue. Would you hop on your Vespa and trot on over to the boss’s house to see what he thinks?
I give two weeks notice.
---
### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [March 23, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/20 "2010-03-23T22:04:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> So what? How does that make it ok?
Because the company has all the power and makes the rules. I’m just playing by them.
> [@](#):
>
> I give two weeks notice.
Just for getting an offer? Or thinking about leaving? Seems a little self destructive.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532.md?page=2)