# Is this a "with cause" termination? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 23, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532 "2010-03-23T21:10:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/21 "2010-03-23T22:10:34Z")
IAN in HR, but everything I’ve read and been told indicates that generally companies just give out dates of employment of former employees. Otherwise they open themselves up to law suits for no good reason. If you are on good terms with a former manager or coworker then you can also use them as personal reference (_if_ you check with them first and they are positive about you) but in absence of that whoever does a background check will just get dates from HR. Again, IANIHR, correction welcome. As for the exit interview, yeah she can just say that she is considering multiple opportunities at this time and does not wish to go into details. Which is true, she can also be considering winning the lottery on the way home. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/22 "2010-03-23T22:11:55Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Companies aren’t dumb. If Jane gets a job and gives two weeks of COURSE they are going to know Joe is going to leave. > > Companies don’t like to pay unemployment. So they wouldn’t fire Joe anyway. > > In terms of with or without cause and unemployment, I’ve dealt with 3 states, FL, IL and Maryand and in all the cases I’ve dealt with there is no real rhyme or reason. These companies I worked for all had a policy of fighting every unemployment claim, justified or not. > > For instance, in one company (in IL) we let an employee go for always being late. This employee appealed and lost. A few months later we let another employee go, same identical problem. He appealed and this arbitrator said, “No, look he TRIED to get there.” He got his unemployment. > > Same thing, same state, same laws, different arbitrators different results. > > I agree with others who said, “Don’t tell them.” All you should put in any resignation letters is "Due to opportunities elsewhere, I am resigning my postion as of today. The last day I will be working is March 31… I thank you for the opportunity to work with your company. > > That’s IS IT. Never say more than that. That is enough. > > Most new employers understand if you don’t want to give a current employer as a reference. But sometimes it gets back, especially if it’s a small industry. > > The good news is arbitrators are more sympathetic now than in the past, and they are more willing to rule for you in a case than in the past. > > Finally why would you let any company bully you, if you’re leaving. If they give you the slightest hassle just say, “If my working out a 2 week notice is going to be an issue, you can choose to waive it and I’ll go now.” That’ll shut them up everytime. > > How would anyone be able to bully you if you didn’t tell them where you were going. Once you quit they hold no power over you anymore? I don’t get it. > > Finally remember 2 weeks notice is a COURTESY, if you don’t get two severence if you’re fired, than that company is not even entitled to that courtesy. Please note that I said the company tries to bully people, not that they always succeed, nor that some people don’t realize that such threats are not within the law. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/23 "2010-03-23T22:26:31Z")
If they know where she is going (no reason that should be disclosed) there may be suspicion that the spouse will follow. However, she could just as easily be leaving for a job on the other side of town as far as they need to know. I know many couples, including personal experience, that have lived apart due to employment opportunities for extended periods. You don’t say what type of profession they are in or at what skill level so it’s hard to say what the reaction will be. If the spouse is a valued employee, the employer may do every thing possible in order to have him remain (again, not sure of the travel distance between current location and Denver). So I guess it all boils down to whether or not the employer is told she is taking an opportunity in Denver. If discovered, it still doesn’t mean spouse will be terminated. As I said, it could mean the opposite. Would he follow within the two weeks or follow to Denver at a later date once she has established this is a good match for her and living arrangements have been solidified (my recommendation) If so, this could take some time and there’s no reason he couldn’t remain at the old job until he finds a new position as well. Again, this is assuming he is a valued employee to current employer. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/24 "2010-03-23T22:29:56Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > The big worry is that Joe will take a few months to find a job and that potential employers will be turned off by a “with cause” termination on his record, perhaps dooming him to unemployment permanently. The whole point of the good cause/no cause distinction is that the employer cannot arbitrarily designate which category the separation falls into. A separation for cause means that the employee was derelict in his duty. It has nothing to do with a spouse’s performance or resignation. An employer who terminated an employee because they suspected family obligations might require the employee to tender a resignation in the future has undertaken a without-cause termination. An employer who subsequently tells other prospective employers that it was for good cause has committed defamation (indeed, defamation per se). An employer who withholds contractual severance pay to such an employee has committed an actionable breach. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/25 "2010-03-23T22:38:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When one gives notice, the other should have the decency to give the same notice. I disagree. I would recommend the spouse remain on the existing job until wife has established that the new job is indeed a good match and living arrangements have been made. - this could well take an extended period of time. I’m assuming she is capable of living without him holding her hand every day… She could end up hating the new place and want to return after a few weeks (not common, but it does happen) Anyway, that would be my recommendation based on 20+ years in the HR/Recruiting biz ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/26 "2010-03-24T14:16:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He should lie to his employer? Where is he lying? If he intends to continue to work for the current employer until he finds another job, where is he lying? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When one gives notice, the other should have the decency to give the same notice. Why? Presumably he will continue to work for them and remain wherever they are now until he finds a new job in Denver, at which time he will tender his resignation. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I give two weeks notice. Seriously? You quit your current job at the same time you start a search for a new job? You realize you’re out of step with pretty much everyone else in the US, right? No one quits just because they’re thinking about leaving, and no employer expects that from their employees. ---
**Author:** ![Theodore\_Striker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Theodore\_Striker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theodore_Striker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/27 "2010-03-24T15:24:53Z")
I am in HR, so I have a little bit of insight on this one. While it can be reasonably assumed that the husband is seeking work in Denver, there is no proof that the husband is seeking work in Denver, and if husband was fired, this would be seen as without proper cause by an unemployment board review. He is not obligated to tell his employer that he is seeking other opportunities, and if there is no other documented reason that would be grounds for termination, the employer is going to be on the hook for the unemployment if they do decide to let him go. If he is terminated causing forfeiture of benefits, the company may be liable in a lawsuit for unjust dismissal, even if it is an at will state. Furthermore, a company HR representative will most likely not be able to release whether he was fired for just cause if called for a verification, and may only be allowed to release dates of employment. A reference given in the company may be able to expound on this further, but has to be careful to express any reasoning for dismissal with detailed and verifiable accuracy, or else they may be sued. Chances are a reference listed by a candidate is not going to do anything to jeopardize the candidate’s opportunity to get a job anyway, but you never know, people are funny. If his work perfomance was to suffer because of his job search, or other surrounding circumstances, and these issues were documented properly, then there may be just cause for termination. On to the husband’s personal dilemma. He is under no obligation to provide his current employer with notice of leaving unless this is specified in a valid contract he has signed. There are too many variables for him to consider, including his wife’s new position not working out, having to stay behind to wrap up home sales, etc, and not having a new job himself. In this economy, to tender resignation without a new position secured is looked at very curiously at best, and would not play well with most potential employers. As long as his work performance is up to par, he is not disruptive in the workplace, and otherwise provides no reason for termination, I don’t see what the problem is. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/28 "2010-03-24T15:40:04Z")
Yeah, I really see no deception on the part of the wife or the husband. The wife knows she is leaving, and tenders her resignation. The husband INTENDS to leave AT SOME POINT, and will tender his resignation when it is appropriate to do so. In the interim, he will continue working for his current employer. I mean, shit. All companies more or less expect every single one of their employees to leave at some point. Further, they expect that you’ll continue working for them until you tell them you don’t want to anymore (or they tell you the same thing). Nothing more is expected or required. And to echo **flickster** ’s comments, I’ve know MANY spouses who lived apart due to employment. Sometimes for years. Heck, sometimes it’s been the prelude to divorce. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/29 "2010-03-24T15:41:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, juts cut the bullshit. Trying to scam an employer by shining them on about an intention to stay when you’re really going to ditch them is unprofessional and sneaky and duplicitous and perfectly reasonable grounds for firing somebody. Your only obligation is to continue to perform your job to the best of your abilities until you decide to leave and not look for a job on company time. And while it’s not mandatory, courtesy is usually at least 2 weeks notice. What you do on your own time, INCLUDING looking for a job, is your own business. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/30 "2010-03-25T18:22:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > IF he were applying for unemployment, I’m fairly certain that no state would consider that to be ‘for cause’. In some states, quitting because your spouse is transferring is considered good cause, and you are eligible for unemployment. New York, New Jersey, California, Maine, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532/31 "2010-03-25T21:28:11Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > In some states, quitting because your spouse is transferring is considered good cause, and you are eligible for unemployment. New York, New Jersey, California, Maine, etc. IIRC in this realm “good cause” refers to the employer having a good reason to fire you. In some situations, this may be restricted to malicious misconduct, such as embezzling, harassment, or sabotage. Inability to perform one’s assigned duties may not be, especially if the employee has been with the company a long time and can show a history of satisfactory performance prior to a reassignment of duties that didn’t work out well. I won’t say any more about this; my opinion about this special situation would be valueless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-with-cause-termination/533532.md?page=1)