# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/181 "2015-11-01T14:37:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If he said this, then “yes” (in a relatively minor way). That’s crazy. Using words properly is perfectly acceptable. Webster’s is a more authoritative resource on language than random peoples opinions. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/182 "2015-11-01T14:42:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What makes you think that? I’m sure some will come dressed like [this](http://www.marklawrencedesign.com/thug/), others like [this](http://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.10/mainline/en_US/Thug.html), still others like [this](http://rarelyknown.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/1442319201_be92593998.jpg). Why on earth would you expect them to show up dressed in black stereotypes? > > It’s telling that earlier here and in ATMB someone described thug stereotypes as including heavy gold jewelry (like that famous thug [Parvathy Omanakuttan](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xB9-bOdWoI0/UGRXaqfS5zI/AAAAAAAAG7o/Gql9a2ViydE/s1600/parvathy+omanakuttan.png)), disrespect for police (like [these thugs in Vichy France](http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/227677-1/1547086947_7ad783cdaf)), and disrespect for women (sometimes even for [binders full of them, like this thug](http://crooksandliars.com/files/primary_image/15/01/mitt_tout2.jpg)). Somehow all these traits come together magically to make black hip-hop artists synonymous with “thugs.” Funny how that works. With regards to rap music there are differences in style between Tupac and Easy-E who are known as “gangsta” rap and someone like Will Smith while black and a hip hop artist would never be considered a “thug.” Do you listen to any rap music? Any gangsta rap? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/183 "2015-11-01T14:44:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s crazy. Using words properly is perfectly acceptable. Webster’s is a more authoritative resource on language than random peoples opinions. We obviously disagree on what is “properly” in this case. I think the meaning is changing, in terms of usage, rather fast. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/184 "2015-11-01T14:57:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We obviously disagree on what is “properly” in this case. I think the meaning is changing, in terms of usage, rather fast. Referring to people burning and looting a city as thugs is as proper as it gets. President Obama is a Harvard educated lawyer. I’m sure he knows the language. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/185 "2015-11-01T14:59:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Referring to people burning and looting a city as thugs is as proper as it gets. At one time I’m sure that was true. I’m not so sure it’s true in present usage. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/186 "2015-11-01T15:14:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I guess when President Obama referred to the rioters in Baltimore as “thugs” he was being a racist asshole and insensitive prick? Since it’s pretty obvious and all. But for some reason I doubt you care about being “perceived” as intellectually dishonest and inconsistent with your faux outrage. I was explaining the nature of the “risk” you asked about. It seems you were instead being disingenuous with your question, and now I’m sorry I answered it. I have expressed no outrage, faux or otherwise, and I would very much appreciate your not implying intellectual dishonesty or inconsistency on my part when you have precisely zero basis for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/187 "2015-11-01T15:19:19Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What do you think? Given what you acknowledged about the racist history and associations of blackface, for example. Do you honestly believe that could happen? Yes, but it’s very unlikely, especially at a frat party. What I think is that it will become more likely in the future as young white people grow up fully engrossed in hiphop and are comfortable with it, as is already happening. Frats are about as racially segregated as anything in our society though, so a fat isn’t likely to be at the leading edge. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/188 "2015-11-01T15:20:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If he said this, then “yes” (in a relatively minor way). He did. And then he stood by it. That was April. Has the language changed since then? > **[Obama stands by the term 'thugs,' White House says](https://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/29/obama-white-house-baltimore-stephanie-rawlings-blake/26585143/)** > > President criticized violent rioters as 'criminals and thugs.' ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/189 "2015-11-01T15:23:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Subtle and important? Maybe. Maybe not. If so, maybe not in the way you imply. Hiphop is a style of music, and a pretty broad one at that. If you automatically associate hiphop styles with violent criminality, then that’s pretty important too. And it’s pretty easy to show that hiphop styles are very closely associated with segments of the black community. Culture is not strictly black and white (in both senses of the term). > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that the majority of Juggalos are violent criminals? No. Didn’t say so. Just said they would have gotten away with such a party. > [@](#): > > This is just head-in-the-sand stubbornness. Once you are aware that a word has certain social significance, your use of that word says something about you. You can’t just point to a particular definition and say “I only mean that one thing” when the entirety of social context shows something else. Stubborn? Maybe. Head in the sand? No. I’m the only one without my head in the sand. I don’t just blindly do what I’m told. I don’t let racists define what I say or do. > [@](#): > > You don’t get to sit back and say “Well, I’m not a racist, so I can do or say whatever I want without criticism, so long as I can claim that you can’t prove that I did it because I’m a racist as a state of being.” Yes I do. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/190 "2015-11-01T15:27:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And then you have the right to keep being racist and face the consequences. The question, which is implicit in the OP, is what is racist and what isn’t, and who gets to decide. The problem in our discussion is the idea that everyone can agree that something is racist, or not. I believe reasonable people can disagree about that. I don’t believe that the aggrieved party (black people in this case) have the absolute right to declare what is racist and what is not. Nor do those standards never change (see the word “thug”). But most important, I believe that the attitude that there can be no disagreement about any of this (and the readiness of some to pounce on anyone who dares to disagree) leads to a lack of dialogue, and a lack of interaction, that only makes race relations worse. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/191 "2015-11-01T15:32:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Stubborn? Maybe. Head in the sand? No. I’m the only one without my head in the sand. I don’t just blindly do what I’m told. I don’t let racists define what I say or do. You are stubbornly insisting on your right to hurt people who do not deserve to be hurt. What starts as plausibly innocent often comes to show itself to be something else. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/192 "2015-11-01T15:55:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You are stubbornly insisting on your right to hurt people who do not deserve to be hurt. I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that I deserve presumption of innocence if I do hurt someone. And the right to dispute whether I did hurt them, or to explain that I didn’t intend to hurt them. If those rights didn’t exist, we’d live in a world in which anyone could claim they were hurt by someone else by anything at all and the person who did the hurting would be totally responsible. So if someone decided they were offended by the word “chair,” and I said “chair,” it would be my fault and I’d have to stop using the word. And then, of course, I’d just stop talking in front of that person at all, and that’s not going to help anything. Now, if that person has a good argument for why a word or action hurts them, I’ll listen - I have an obligation to listen. And if they have a good point, I’ll stop. Both parties have a right to speak and make their point and come to agreement, or not. > [@](#): > > What starts as plausibly innocent often comes to show itself to be something else. Not sure what you mean by that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/193 "2015-11-01T16:09:09Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes I do. And the rest of society gets to decide what they think you are and to treat you accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/194 "2015-11-01T16:13:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s crazy. Using words properly is perfectly acceptable. Webster’s is a more authoritative resource on language than random peoples opinions. Except that he knows black people. They’re even in his family! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/195 "2015-11-01T16:13:46Z")
I’ll give **lance strongarm** the benefit of the doubt here. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m saying that I deserve presumption of innocence if I do hurt someone. And the right to dispute whether I did hurt them, or to explain that I didn’t intend to hurt them. I think it’s only fair to give someone a presumption of innocence at first. Not endlessly; not in repeating the same kind of thing after you’ve been schooled. To the second part, I don’t see how you can dispute _whether_ you hurt someone. By definition, they have information about this that you don’t have. It is reasonable to (again, at first) seek explanation… …in conjunction with your apology, of the third part. Of course, if you genuinely didn’t know and didn’t mean to, an apology given and an explanation received is all fair and proper, and should clear the field. And now you know. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/196 "2015-11-01T16:44:31Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’ll give **lance strongarm** the benefit of the doubt here. > > I think it’s only fair to give someone a presumption of innocence at first. Not endlessly; not in repeating the same kind of thing after you’ve been schooled. Cool, except I still object to the idea that you can walk in and “school” someone about everything. Some things, sure - like if you teach a non-American English speaker not to use certain words that are undeniably slurs - but we can still disagree about others. > [@](#): > > To the second part, I don’t see how you can dispute _whether_ you hurt someone. By definition, they have information about this that you don’t have. It is reasonable to (again, at first) seek explanation… I can dispute whether someone can insist that they can tell me not to hurt them just because they are hurt by something. See my “chair” example. You can’t claim the right to make everyone stop saying “chair” around you because the word hurts you. > [@](#): > > …in conjunction with your apology, of the third part. Of course, if you genuinely didn’t know and didn’t mean to, an apology given and an explanation received is all fair and proper, and should clear the field. And now you know. Of course. If I am convinced I did wrong, I’ll gladly apologize. Sometimes offense involves doing something hurtful without intent and the result is to be informed, then apologize, then that’s that. But sometimes not. The offended party is not automatically 100% authoritative. It’s a bit like a car accident - I might admit fault and apologize, but I might insist I did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/197 "2015-11-01T16:46:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And the rest of society gets to decide what they think you are and to treat you accordingly. Well, yeah, of course. That’s true of everything, isn’t it? Doesn’t make it right. History is full of people who were treated unfairly by the rest of society. Homosexuals come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/198 "2015-11-01T17:03:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, yeah, of course. That’s true of everything, isn’t it? > > Doesn’t make it right. History is full of people who were treated unfairly by the rest of society. Homosexuals come to mind. You’re not defending any admirable principle. Using words like “thug” with disregard to the social context and the feelings of the people around you is now equivalent to your sexual preferences? Language is not a one-way street. Just like racism, it’s not just dependent on what is in the head of the speaker. It is also dependent what is perceived by listeners. And language is a very powerful tool for social oppression. Our entire cultural history is evidence of that. There is this article from a black man who was a cop and found that racism was pervasive in police culture, including — [https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/i-was-a-st-louis-cop-my-peers-were-racist-and-violent-and-theres-only-one-fix/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/i-was-a-st-louis-cop-my-peers-were-racist-and-violent-and-theres-only-one-fix/) — > [@](#): > > Cops routinely called anyone of color a “thug,” whether they were the victim or just a bystander. And there’s also this article — [https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/) — which asks “Shooters of color are called ‘terrorists’ and ‘thugs.’ Why are white shooters called ‘mentally ill’?” This is just one bit of evidence of the way usage of the word “thug” is trending. To ignore it with “Well _I_ don’t mean it when I say it” doesn’t cut it. Just like you say we can’t read your mind and know whether you are in your heart a racist, we can’t read your mind and know whether whether you mean to use a word in a racist way. Language is a co-operative exercise. You don’t just get to decide what you mean unilaterally. That’s not how language works. And meanings and connotations change over time. There’s nothing virtuous about someone continuing to use any word that has taken on offensive connotations—whether it’s “nigger” or “boy” or “jewboy” or “queer” or “midget” or “oriental” or “redneck” or whatever—when it has been made clear to you that it is hurtful to people in society. I have had to face those questions myself. At first I was annoyed that I couldn’t refer to East Asian people as “oriental,” because it seemed like an innocent and useful word. I was annoyed that I couldn’t use “retard” as an insult for a stupid or contemptible person—it feels satisfying to say in a way that other insults don’t. But over time, hearing more opinions from people who are affected by these words, I _have_ to take them into account when deciding whether to use them because I cannot deny that I am likely to be hurting someone or perpetuating a culture that disadvantages them unfairly. And, as an aside, yes, I believe that in insisting on using the word “thug,” Obama was perpetuating harmful stereotypes, in the same way that I believe that Chris Rock’s “there are black people and there are niggers” perpetuates harmful stereotypes. They are both people I admire for certain things, but I believe those particular decisions of theirs are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/199 "2015-11-01T17:38:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Do you really believe that the majority of Juggalos are violent criminals? The majority of Juggalos are not violent criminals. The whole crowd of them, however, is about as far away from “class” and “decent people” as one can possibly get. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/200 "2015-11-01T17:41:21Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > He did. And then he stood by it. That was April. Has the language changed since then? > > [Obama stands by the term 'thugs,' White House says](http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/29/obama-white-house-baltimore-stephanie-rawlings-blake/26585143/) Has the language changed since then? Well, maybe. Has it changed back? The idea that we can declare that words were once perfectly okay for the President of the U.S. to use, and then are vicious racial slurs a few months later, is the problem. It’s not so simple. Language is fluid and complicated. The fact that you have to ask this question is part of my point. If it were so simple. we should be able to declare that thug officially became racist, and exactly when. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=11)