# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/201 "2015-11-01T17:42:21Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > The majority of Juggalos are not violent criminals. The whole crowd of them, however, is about as far away from “class” and “decent people” as one can possibly get. Perhaps we could say they are in touch with their inner thugs. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/202 "2015-11-01T17:43:23Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Of being seen by the people around you as an insensitive prick or a racist asshole. What if some people see you as an insensitive prick/racist asshole, and some don’t? Who is right? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/203 "2015-11-01T17:45:03Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I would very much appreciate your not implying intellectual dishonesty or inconsistency on my part when you have precisely zero basis for doing so. Hear hear. And that goes for everyone, everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/204 "2015-11-01T18:05:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m not saying that at all. I meant what I said more as a characterization of your action rather than a summary of what you said. The actions you’ve declared to undertake are actions which hurt people, and despite having been informed of this, you are insisting on undertaking those actions anyway. > [@](#): > > I’m saying that I deserve presumption of innocence if I do hurt someone. The first time. “Fool me once” and all that. > [@](#): > > And the right to dispute whether I did hurt them, No one disputes your right to do this. Please feel as free as ever to dispute with someone whether or not you have hurt them. > [@](#): > > or to explain that I didn’t intend to hurt them. Not sure how this hasn’t gotten through yet but once more with feeling: It does not matter what you intended. Harm is harm. This is not a mens rea crime, so to speak. A good apology, to be clear, _can_ include an explanation of your intention, if this is meant to reassure that the offense won’t occur again. But it’s hard for me to think of any other situation (i.e. other than an apology) where you would be right to tell the person you hurt that you didn’t intend to hurt them. > [@](#): > > If those rights didn’t exist, > [@](#): > > Now, if that person has a good argument for why a word or action hurts them, I’ll listen - I have an obligation to listen. And if they have a good point, I’ll stop. Both parties have a right to speak and make their point and come to agreement, or not. I have not seen any evidence in this thread that this is true of you. You’ve seen the point made about the word ‘thug’, yet instead of saying you’ll stop saying it, you’ve instead insisted that will continue so that racists can’t control your language. If this is what you do for ‘thug’ why should we believe you when you say here that you’ll stop in any other similar case? > [@](#): > > Not sure what you mean by that. I mean that if you were at first using the word innocently, the more you argue for your right to use it, the less plausible it comes to seem that your use is innocent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/205 "2015-11-01T18:17:55Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > He did. And then he stood by it. That was April. Has the language changed since then? > > [Obama stands by the term 'thugs,' White House says](http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/29/obama-white-house-baltimore-stephanie-rawlings-blake/26585143/) I don’t think so. It’s not a huge deal. I think he used a word he shouldn’t have. It doesn’t mean he’s a monster. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/206 "2015-11-01T18:18:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Except that he knows black people. They’re even in his family! ??? ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/207 "2015-11-01T18:33:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Perhaps we could say they are in touch with their inner thugs. Pretty much. The whole philosophy/ideology/whatever-to-call-it is thuggish; based in douchebaggery, gang mentality, and hooliganism. As far as the main topic at hand right now goes, I’m a black guy who often dresses in baggy clothing. I just like the style. I’ve had many people call me a “thug”, based purely on looks. I always laugh and shake my head, however–I’m about as far from a “thug” as one can get. I graduated high school near the top of my 700+ student class. I’m skilled in I.T., horticulture, meteorology, photography, and political activism. I’ve become a popular writer on one of the Internet’s top progressive blog sites. So, yeah. I prefer the term “street intellectual” for myself. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/208 "2015-11-01T18:33:57Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I meant what I said more as a characterization of your action rather than a summary of what you said. > > The actions you’ve declared to undertake are actions which hurt people, and despite having been informed of this, you are insisting on undertaking those actions anyway. False. I have explained this. I am not simply declaring that I can do whatever I want. I’ll listen. > [@](#): > > No one disputes your right to do this. Please feel as free as ever to dispute with someone whether or not you have hurt them. Cool. Then we understand each other. That’s all I’m saying. > [@](#): > > Not sure how this hasn’t gotten through yet but once more with feeling: It does not matter what you intended. Harm is harm. This is not a mens rea crime, so to speak. Completely false. My intentions matter. Of course they do! > [@](#): > > But it’s hard for me to think of any other situation (i.e. other than an apology) where you would be right to tell the person you hurt that you didn’t intend to hurt them. Hmmm. That’s something that happens every day among people. > [@](#): > > I have not seen any evidence in this thread that this is true of you. I am not here to prove anything to you about myself. > [@](#): > > You’ve seen the point made about the word ‘thug’, yet instead of saying you’ll stop saying it, you’ve instead insisted that will continue so that racists can’t control your language. If this is what you do for ‘thug’ why should we believe you when you say here that you’ll stop in any other similar case? I didn’t say I would continue to use it; I said I reserve the right to. Thug is just one word. I’ve already said I would consider not using any word that I think shouldn’t be used. Obviously. Just because I reserve the right to disagree about something doesn’t mean I think I can do whatever I want. > [@](#): > > I mean that if you were at first using the word innocently, the more you argue for your right to use it, the less plausible it comes to seem that your use is innocent. Sure. If I didn’t know it was a slur, and I was informed that it does, it’s no longer innocent. But if I disagree about the word, I can disagree. Again with the “chair” analogy. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/209 "2015-11-01T18:35:46Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > Pretty much. The whole philosophy/ideology/whatever-to-call-it is thuggish; based in douchebaggery, gang mentality, and hooliganism. > > As far as the main topic at hand right now goes, I’m a black guy who often dresses in baggy clothing. I just like the style. > > I’ve had many people call me a “thug”, based purely on looks. I always laugh and shake my head, however–I’m about as far from a “thug” as one can get. I graduated high school near the top of my 700+ student class. I’m skilled in I.T., horticulture, meteorology, photography, and political activism. I’ve become a popular writer on one of the Internet’s top progressive blog sites. > > So, yeah. I prefer the term “street intellectual” for myself. 😛 I like that term. In what context did someone call you a thug? To your face? Friend, or stranger? That you dress like one, or that they think you are one? Of course, you could still look like, or be, a thug without it being a racial term. ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/210 "2015-11-01T18:46:51Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I like that term. > > In what context did someone call you a thug? To your face? Friend, or stranger? That you dress like one, or that they think you are one? > > Of course, you could still look like, or be, a thug without it being a racial term. Thanks. 😛 Almost always, it’s been that they straight-up think I _am_ one. Most of the time, it’s been strangers in public places (restaurants, waiting rooms, buses, trains, parks, et cetera) who think I can’t hear what they’re whispering about. My hearing may suck, but it doesn’t suck _that_ much! 😃 I’m politically active, so I have been called one to my face several times, mostly during activist events. I’ve always responded with some variation on “well then, brother/sister, you’ve managed to meet the most intelligent, articulate ‘thug’ in the state!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/211 "2015-11-01T19:15:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Completely false. My intentions matter. Of course they do! Why would you think this? Let’s put it this way. There’s no such thing as just “mattering,” really. There’s “mattering to X for project Y.” For example, the temperature outside matters to me for the project of deciding whether to have a picnic. The speed of light matters to scientists for the project of constructing formulations of physical laws. And so on. Say you’re just going along doing whatever you’re doing and you accidentally step on someone’s foot and they yell “ouch.” Your intention in this case matters, to whom, for what project? > [@](#): > > Hmmm. That’s something that happens every day among people. Outisde the context of an apology? What’s an every-day sort of occurrence you have in mind? I thought of another one: Disavowing responsibility for making amends for the harm. But surely that doesn’t apply in the present discussion–no one is asking anyone to make amends for saying “thug” about a black person. They’re just asking them to stop. > [@](#): > > I am not here to prove anything to you about myself. And the fact remains that I have seen no evidence in this thread (and per force no evidence has been presented in this thread) that you would actually act the way you say you would act when you have hurt someone with your usage of a word. That’s fine if you have no intention to prove it. You have no intention to prove it, and indeed, you haven’t done so. You have in fact given evidence for the opposite view, as I further explained. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say I would continue to use it; I said I reserve the right to. 🙂 No one has denied you the right. You’re not engaging with the actual issue at hand. Are you going to keep using the word or not? I have half a feeling you’re not going to! That even as you argue here, you’ve actually seen the merit in your interlocutors’ position and are going to adjust your own behavior accordingly, and are now just looking for something to argue about and also not wanting to admit you kind of lost the previous argument. This would certainly explain the way you just tried to avoid the question of what you’re actually going to _do_. > [@](#): > > Again with the “chair” analogy. Nobody is going to tell you the word “chair” hurts them. It doesn’t matter for this conversation what you’d do if they did, because for such a thing to happen, so many things would have to be different about how human beings work the situation would no longer be meaningfully analogous to the “thug” situation. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/212 "2015-11-01T19:20:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But for some reason I doubt you care about being “perceived” as intellectually dishonest and inconsistent with your faux outrage. > [@andros](#): > > I was explaining the nature of the “risk” you asked about. It seems you were instead being disingenuous with your question, and now I’m sorry I answered it. > > I have expressed no outrage, faux or otherwise, and I would very much appreciate your not implying intellectual dishonesty or inconsistency on my part when you have precisely zero basis for doing so. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What if some people see you as an insensitive prick/racist asshole, and some don’t? > [@magellan01](#): > > Except that he knows black people. They’re even in his family! These personal shots need to stop. They do nothing to promote discussion. If you need to continue this type of exchange, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/213 "2015-11-01T19:31:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What if some people see you as an insensitive prick/racist asshole, and some don’t? > > Who is right? I don’t think it’s a matter of determining who is right or wrong. My long hair, tattoos, and earrings communicate things to people; I run a risk of people judging me based on my appearance. I acknowledge and accept that risk. The words we use carry a similar risk. If I choose to call homosexuals fags, I understand there is a risk of being judged–by a substantial number of people–an ignorant antique at best, and more likely a homophobic bigot. We estimate risk of how we might be perceived, and by whom, and make our decisions accordingly. If I am truly ignorant about how my words might be perceived, I cannot judge risk with any accuracy. If I am told that my words carry risk of negative perception, I have a few options. I can ignore it and remain ignorant. I can work to evaluate and understand that risk enough to make a more informed decision. Or, I suppose, I can get angry about it and fight a quixotic battle against it on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/214 "2015-11-01T19:34:48Z")
Sorry, **tom~** , thanks. My apologies, **octopus**. I shouldn’t have assumed disingenuity on your part. Do you have any other concerns about the “risk” issue? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/215 "2015-11-01T20:08:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > These personal shots need to stop. They do nothing to promote discussion. > > If you need to continue this type of exchange, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit. > > [/Moderating] While I agree that it was good to come in a lower the heat, I can’t figure out had my post fits with the others. iiandyiiifi has stated more than once that much of his positions on things concerning race come from talking to black people close to him, including those in his family. No heat. Just fact. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/216 "2015-11-01T20:12:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > While I agree that it was good to come in a lower the heat, I can’t figure out had my post fits with the others. iiandyiiifi has stated more than once that much of his positions on things concerning race come from talking to black people close to him, including those in his family. No heat. Just fact. Possibly. However, while additional info modifies it, it came across as "Some of my best friends are. . . " ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/217 "2015-11-01T20:47:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Possibly. However, while additional info modifies it, it came across as "Some of my best friends are. . . " Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/218 "2015-11-01T21:58:56Z")
> [@DoggyDunnit](#): > > I’m politically active, so I have been called one to my face several times, mostly during activist events. I’ve always responded with some variation on “well then, brother/sister, you’ve managed to meet the most intelligent, articulate ‘thug’ in the state!” 🙂 Hmmm. Well, I guess there’s no reason you can’t be both. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/219 "2015-11-01T22:01:23Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I don’t think it’s a matter of determining who is right or wrong. But then what? If we’re going to be mad at racists, we have to know who they are, don’t we? > [@](#): > > If I am told that my words carry risk of negative perception, I have a few options. I can ignore it and remain ignorant. I can work to evaluate and understand that risk enough to make a more informed decision. Or, I suppose, I can get angry about it and fight a quixotic battle against it on the internet. Or you can simply have a rational, honest disagreement about it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/220 "2015-11-01T22:02:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > These personal shots need to stop. They do nothing to promote discussion. > > If you need to continue this type of exchange, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit. > > [/Moderating] I hope you weren’t saying that I was making a personal shot. I wasn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=12)