# Is this actually racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174 "2015-10-30T13:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/261 "2015-11-02T14:31:36Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **lance** , you obviously can read. In this case, though, you’re _not_ reading. > > Again, here is what I said: > > I know it’s a long sentence, but there _is_ a “because” in it which makes it exactly logically parallel to > > “Dogs are better than cats because dogs are loyal.” > > Both sentences are of the form “X because Y.” > > In the former case, you claim I didn’t touch on the question of why X should be true–_even though I had given Y as a reason why X should be true._ > > Yet in the latter case you acknowledge that the given Y “touches on” the question of why X should be true. So I know you know how “because” works. > > Is it clear to you now that you were wrong to say I “didn’t even touch” on giving a reason to think the two scenarios are not analogous? > > The reason I gave, to be absolutely clear, is “because for such a thing to happen, so many things would have to be different about how human beings work the situation would no longer be meaningfully analogous to the “thug” situation”. > > That is where I “touched on” the issue. Will you admit you misread or failed to read? I’ve got a better idea than going back and forth about the details of what this sentence said or that word means. Let’s get back on topic in a different way. I am saying that people don’t have an absolute right to dictate whether a word should be considered offensive and therefore shouldn’t be used. There must be broader agreement on that, based on some good reasons. I used “chair” as an extreme example to illustrate my case. One could insist that “chair” offends them, but nobody would agree and their demands that nobody use the word would be dismissed. Obviously there are some words that are indisputably offensive, and many more than are on the fence. So do you agree that no person or group can unilaterally declare a word offensive without some kind of backing for the claim and agreement about it from the rest of us? That’s all I was saying, and I don’t think it’s that controversial. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/262 "2015-11-02T14:33:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think this is indeed laughable – American history is replete with racists who nonetheless loved (or at least thought they felt love for) people of other races. And it is also replete with false accusations of racism. > [@](#): > > As a kid I recall a contractor working on the house (whom my parents soon fired) who would spend most of his time ranting about black people, out of earshot of his trusted second-in-command (who was black), pointing out that he was one of the very rare “good ones” who was honest and could be trusted, and claiming that out of any ten black people nine weren’t worth more than putting against a wall to be shot. That type of racism was and probably still is extremely common, in my experience (this was the suburbs of New Orleans). > > The only types of racism that having a friend or even wife of the ‘target’ race is an actual defense of are the types of racism that disallow any association whatsoever with this race. “Most black people/Jews are worthless/inferior/dishonest/stupid” is entirely compatible with having a black or Jewish friend or even spouse. It proves virtually nothing, in my view. Yes, there are those kinds of people. That’s where the derision of the “some of my best friends are black” thing came from in the first place. Still, that doesn’t change the fact that having black friends could be part of the puzzle. It doesn’t negate racist statements, of course. In any event, saying you have black friends doesn’t prove you aren’t racist in and of itself. We agree on that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/263 "2015-11-02T14:41:13Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And it is also replete with false accusations of racism. And here’s the manifestation of the white fragility syndrome, on which the merest possibility of a false accusation of racism is treated as something on the level of a centuries-long bloody, brutal, monstrous, dehumanizing, actual history of racism. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/264 "2015-11-02T15:02:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So do you agree that no person or group can unilaterally declare a word offensive without some kind of backing for the claim and agreement about it from the rest of us? That’s all I was saying, and I don’t think it’s that controversial. The word “Thug” is not racist. It basically means “criminal”, right? The only place I’ve seen it branded as racist is here on SDMB by the racism-obsessed liberals. An example was given of a police department that referred to blacks as “thugs”. Well, police deal with the criminal element; What if they had referred to those blacks as “criminals”? Would “criminal” then be branded as racist? How is “black” not racist??? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/265 "2015-11-02T15:21:57Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > The word “Thug” is not racist. It basically means “criminal”, right? Yes. But its specific type of criminal / person who behaves poorly. All the following are criminals. Shoplifters. Cat burgulars. Regular burgulars. Ham burgulars. Scam artists. Embezzlers. Mofia bosses. Tax evaders. Business owners that don’t follow health or safety codes. Assassins. Terrorists. Time share salesman and on and on. These are all different than a thug. In the “certain black people behaving badly” news in the past few years “thug” is the perfect descriptor for some of those folks IMO. That’s why I’m not giving it up without a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/266 "2015-11-02T15:37:32Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > The word “Thug” is not racist. It basically means “criminal”, right? > The only place I’ve seen it branded as racist is here on SDMB by the racism-obsessed liberals. An example was given of a police department that referred to blacks as “thugs”. Well, police deal with the criminal element; What if they had referred to those blacks as “criminals”? Would “criminal” then be branded as racist? > > How is “black” not racist??? Then you don’t read very widely. While the dynamic was first noticed much earlier, there’s been quite a bit of attention on it in the last two years. Here are just a few random data points. [This is a pretty obvious racist usage.](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/a-thugs-life-dont-matter-texas-racist-threatens-mob-violence-against-black-lives-matter-to-avenge-deputys-death/) [NFL fans may recall this kerfuffle.](http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24417234) [Consider the origins of the English term in British India.](http://politicalblindspot.com/the-racist-origins-of-the-term-thug-and-how-it-relates-to-the-trayvon-martin-shooting/) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/267 "2015-11-02T15:41:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Then you don’t read very widely. While the dynamic was first noticed much earlier, there’s been quite a bit of attention on it in the last two years. Here are just a few random data points. > > [This is a pretty obvious racist usage.](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/a-thugs-life-dont-matter-texas-racist-threatens-mob-violence-against-black-lives-matter-to-avenge-deputys-death/) > > [NFL fans may recall this kerfuffle.](http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24417234) And by “widely”, you mean nowhere in the English speaking world except the US, right? > [@](#): > > [Consider the origins of the English term in British India.](http://politicalblindspot.com/the-racist-origins-of-the-term-thug-and-how-it-relates-to-the-trayvon-martin-shooting/) Yeah, and those folks were thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/268 "2015-11-02T15:45:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And by “widely”, you mean nowhere in the English speaking world except the US, right? That’s right. I thought everyone understood this entire conversation to be about US English context. It’s completely typical for the understanding of slurs to differ between countries. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/269 "2015-11-02T15:46:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And here’s the manifestation of the white fragility syndrome, on which the merest possibility of a false accusation of racism is treated as something on the level of a centuries-long bloody, brutal, monstrous, dehumanizing, actual history of racism. I said nothing of the kind. I did not suggest that being accused falsely of racism was as bad as the suffering of the victims of racism. Don’t be fucking ridiculous. I believe that being racist is a really really bad thing, and therefore being falsely accused of racism is a deep insult. If you think it’s no big deal, fine. I also note that false accusations of racism only weaken the effort to stop real racism. But if it’s all the same to you, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/270 "2015-11-02T15:57:47Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > That’s right. I thought everyone understood this entire conversation to be about US English context. It’s completely typical for the understanding of slurs to differ between countries. It’s also completely parochial to think that your own little world is all that matters in the context of language change. But even then, if we can’t take our cultural cues from two of the [highest ranking](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/08/30/217211589/coming-up-kerry-statement-about-the-crisis-in-syria) [government officials](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/08/30/217211589/coming-up-kerry-statement-about-the-crisis-in-syria), one of them a member of the alleged group targeted by the term, then maybe something about the premise needs to be questioned. Or is it your contention that those two men re not “widely read”? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/271 "2015-11-02T16:18:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s also completely parochial to think that your own little world is all that matters in the context of language change. Huh? American usage is not “all that matters,” but it’s pretty central to the specific question of the evolution of American English. > [@](#): > > But even then, if we can’t take our cultural cues from two of the [highest ranking](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/08/30/217211589/coming-up-kerry-statement-about-the-crisis-in-syria) [government officials](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/08/30/217211589/coming-up-kerry-statement-about-the-crisis-in-syria), one of them a member of the alleged group targeted by the term, then maybe something about the premise needs to be questioned. Or is it your contention that those two men re not “widely read”? I think Obama and Kerry were invoking the term deliberately for political reasons. I did not agree with the choice, and Obama in particular certainly took some heat for it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/272 "2015-11-02T16:23:54Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I think Obama and Kerry were invoking the term deliberately for political reasons. I did not agree with the choice, and Obama in particular certainly took some heat for it. A black president was deliberately using a racial slur against black rioters protesting police violence? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/273 "2015-11-02T16:33:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I said nothing of the kind. I did not suggest that being accused falsely of racism was as bad as the suffering of the victims of racism. Don’t be fucking ridiculous. > > I believe that being racist is a really really bad thing, and therefore being falsely accused of racism is a deep insult. If you think it’s no big deal, fine. It’s not about you and whether you think you’re being deeply deeply insulted at being called a racist. That’s petty. That’s white fragility. It’s not about whether _you are a racist_. That’s trifling. Get your head out of yourself and look at the big picture. You are racist. I am racist. Our society is racist. The task before us is how to keep making our society less racist so that people are less harmed by racism. As a general matter white people in our society benefit from racism. I really don’t care whether you’re deeply deeply insulted. Stop thinking about yourself. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/274 "2015-11-02T16:51:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s not about you and whether you think you’re being deeply deeply insulted at being called a racist. That’s petty. That’s white fragility. > > It’s not about whether _you are a racist_. That’s trifling. > > Get your head out of yourself and look at the big picture. > > You are racist. I am racist. Our society is racist. The task before us is how to keep making our society less racist so that people are less harmed by racism. > > As a general matter white people in our society benefit from racism. I really don’t care whether you’re deeply deeply insulted. Stop thinking about yourself. Don’t tell me what I am. Don’t tell me who to think about. If you want to say you are a racist, great. Racists like you shouldn’t be lecturing others about racism, should they? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/275 "2015-11-02T17:41:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I said nothing of the kind. I did not suggest that being accused falsely of racism was as bad as the suffering of the victims of racism. Don’t be fucking ridiculous. > > I believe that being racist is a really really bad thing, and therefore being falsely accused of racism is a deep insult. If you think it’s no big deal, fine. > > I also note that false accusations of racism only weaken the effort to stop real racism. But if it’s all the same to you, whatever. You may wish to read up on [white fragility syndrome](http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race), and ask yourself some difficult questions about whether it describes your own reactions. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/276 "2015-11-02T17:51:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You may wish to read up on [white fragility syndrome](http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race), and ask yourself some difficult questions about whether it describes your own reactions. Or I could reject the notion entirely that it is a thing. Or I could write my own blog post and make something else up and call it a cute name that sounds official too. The funny thing is though, nobody “called me out about race.” I simply mentioned that false accusations of racism happen. Do you disagree? Sounds to me like I’m not the fragile one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/277 "2015-11-02T18:01:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And it is also replete with false accusations of racism. False accusations of racism haven’t caused a tiny fraction of the harm that racism has. False accusations of racism occur, I just don’t think they’re particularly damaging. In terms of their effect on the country I think it’s a tiny blip compared to the effects of racism. > [@](#): > > Yes, there are those kinds of people. That’s where the derision of the “some of my best friends are black” thing came from in the first place. > > Still, that doesn’t change the fact that having black friends could be part of the puzzle. It doesn’t negate racist statements, of course. > > In any event, saying you have black friends doesn’t prove you aren’t racist in and of itself. We agree on that. I think it’s a miniscule part of the puzzle – so small as to be pretty much irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/278 "2015-11-02T18:06:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > False accusations of racism haven’t caused a tiny fraction of the harm that racism has. False accusations of racism occur, I just don’t think they’re particularly damaging. I think they are enormously damaging to our ability to have a desperately needed honest and respectful conversation about race in this country. I think false accuations or the fear of them keeps many whites from talking about race at all, let alone trying to do anything about it. I think that is a huge part of why we never seem to make progress with racial problems. Most everyone is very defensive and untrusting. And there’s also the “crying wolf” problem. Many claims of racism are dismissed, even legitimate ones, because of the ones that aren’t legit. > [@](#): > > In terms of their effect on the country I think it’s a tiny blip compared to the effects of racism. Of course. I never said it was worse than racism itself. But I think it hurts efforts to fight racism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/279 "2015-11-02T18:08:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Or I could reject the notion entirely that it is a thing. Good Lord, that’s the LAST thing I expected you to do! White people get overly defensive about race issues? NOT A THING! I DON’T BELIEVE IT! NO WAY! I REJECT IT CATEGORICALLY! Yup. Definitely no such thing as white fragility syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174/280 "2015-11-02T18:16:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Good Lord, that’s the LAST thing I expected you to do! > > White people get overly defensive about race issues? NOT A THING! I DON’T BELIEVE IT! NO WAY! I REJECT IT CATEGORICALLY! > > Yup. Definitely no such thing as white fragility syndrome. I wasn’t rejecting the idea that white people can get overly defensive about race issues. Of course not. I reject the idea that we can discuss this by throwing blog posts with made up “syndromes” at each other. And you are proving my point. You have set a trap whereby anything I say to defend myself is “defensive” and so I’m stuck in a catch-22 where by simply denying what you say, it still proves your point. It’s witch hunt logic. Sorry, no, I won’t fall in that trap. Back to the point: I never said white people can’t be defensive. I said I wasn’t being defensive. I never even said I had been falsely accused of racism. I simply said false accusation of racism happen. Do you disagree? I’d say that from the reaction to that simple statement, I’m not the fragile one here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-actually-racist/736174.md?page=15)